Philosophy: Do numbers exist?

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Post by Taytaz on Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:18 am

Its perfectly fine to blatantly insult the evil traitor weirdo that is Cheeseball Razz , nah, he is actually awesome

cheers
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Post by Orranis on Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:05 pm

not necessarily "evil traitor." More like "warmonger" if we're to go by the script. Oh, but wait isn't that the same thing?

jk, lol
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Post by SaraDroz on Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:30 am

Number have 'matphsical reality'. Maths exists and is NOT subjective (like perhaps 'beauty'). Just because you cannot touch it, taste it, smell it or hear it does not make it subjective. To be able to understand and make sense of sensory perceptions (touch, taste etc) requires a cognatative level of reason and from reason comes Maths.

I might ask you if 'lines' or 'circles' or any geometric shape and the answer would be the same - they have no physical existence only physical representations but the exist in the 'metaphysical world' as Maths.
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Post by Taytaz on Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:40 am

Are you serious, a SMART person on these forums???
I completely agree that numbers, the use of numbers and the abstract application of numbers are representatives of things in our phyiscal environment, but the numbers and maths itself is a representation of physicality, not phyiscal, this making it metaphysical...wait, does that mean mathematicians are magicians?
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Post by SaraDroz on Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:03 am

Finished a Degree in Classics and Philosophy at Cambridge earlier this year (1st).

Another way of putting this problem is to ask if eUK exist? Or the web? Well you can see forums and machines and keyboards etc - you can 'bump into them' so to speak - but you need cognative reason to know that eUK exists...

Mathematiciance are usualy mad in my experience and of all the intellectual disciplines most prone to suicide. They are not magicians; they do not make thing exist that didn't. They try to deal with the implications of mathematical reality.
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Post by SaraDroz on Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:06 am

Nor is maths a representation of physical reality - you don't get Phi in the real world or infinity - if anything the phsical world is a reprentation of the metaphtsical world and not vice versa.
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Post by malta_1990 on Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:08 am

This is deep. Too deep to think about although I do ponder on life's unponderables sometimes.
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Post by Taytaz on Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:13 am

SaraDroz wrote:Nor is maths a representation of physical reality - you don't get Phi in the real world or infinity - if anything the phsical world is a reprentation of the metaphtsical world and not vice versa.
Or the physical world is a set of selected elements drawn from the pool of metaphysical possibilities, infinity may not exist in a physical embodiment, but the golden ratio, and manifestations of pi are common
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Post by twaters on Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:31 am

Taytaz wrote:Are you serious, a SMART person on these forums???

SaraDroz wrote:Finished a Degree in Classics and Philosophy at Cambridge earlier this year (1st).

So that's a no Razz

However, it seems to me that all these abstract ideas you're talking about are themselves products of the physical world (the human mind) rather than the physical world being drawn from a 'pool of metaphysical possibilities'. Any 'pool' would have to be extrapolated from the physical world, unless you're arguing for a separate sphere of reality.
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Post by SaraDroz on Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:19 pm

Not twaters, I think you miss the point here...

To 'make sense' of any sensory data requires in itself the cognative and rational function that also tells us that there is a metaphsical reality we know as Maths. (I recently heard this same arguement that I am using used for the existence of God).http://www.pxr5.net/theempire/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=692&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

Pls don't post there as I am Master there and don't want ppl to think I'm running off on them lol. (I am zapranoth there).

Maths does not 'exist' in the touchy feely sense, but neither would we able to make sense of the 'touchy, feely sense' (sensory data) without the cognative and rational ability. Maths in it's metaphysical state would still exist if we did not have this cognative ability, the same way as trees and volcanoes would but without awareness we could not recognise that either have a claim to being true.

I would not say Maths exists like a tree exists yet I recognise it's difference and it's reality by 'making sense' of it in precisely the same way as I recognise the existence of a tree - through cognative reason.

The outside world and knowledge of it is a two way relationship: There has to be something to taste and a taster, but MOST importantly you must also have the logical structure that tells you that you are tasting and not hearing... but now I wander into logic lol (my favourite philosophical area).

To make sense of the physical world you need cognative reason and it is precisely this that tells you that Maths is metaphysical truth.
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Post by SaraDroz on Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:28 pm

For any discussions on philosophy, classical history, rl current politics, quantum theory, pls apply to me by pm as I don't want to bore people lol.

Need to keep working and training for now but maybe one day the admins will open Unis here Smile
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Post by malta_1990 on Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:32 pm

SaraDroz wrote:Need to keep working and training for now but maybe one day the admins will open Unis here Smile

Funny you should mention that as we have a Minister of Education in the eUK with CORE and ACE exams. Contact Stan Wephen if you're interested.
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