Philosophy: Do numbers exist?

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Philosophy: Do numbers exist? Empty Philosophy: Do numbers exist?

Post by StanWephen on Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:15 am

Go on, tell me - do numbers exist?
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Post by Ip Lockard on Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:21 am

To the same degree as every adjective, emotion & direction, yes.
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Post by Big Boy Bulley on Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:24 am

More than u know it!
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Post by Fionn on Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:28 am

Numbers are an invent to allow count things, that we bother to count Smile

I could use the goblin tactic count: nothing, something, a lot.
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Post by shadow on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:01 am

only zero in the meaning of nothing exists
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Post by StanWephen on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:03 am

I disagree - numbers do exist.

Let me give an argument - when I first learnt to count, I used my fingers. I counted 1, 2, 3 fingers, all the way up to 10 fingers. But then, if numbers did not exist, if I saw 10 bottles I would not be able to count them, because if numbers did not exist I would not be able to grasp the concept of numerical values. There must be some intuition or sixth sense that enables me to see into the world of numbers and identify in the same way that there are 10 fingers that there are 10 bottles.
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Post by Relic on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:08 am

*confused*
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Post by Dishmcds on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:11 am

Yet there is and never was a need to count the bottles to begin with. It's an unnecessary thought process invented by man to quantify things as opposed to simply accepting on true faith that quite simply bottles exist.
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Post by StanWephen on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:22 am

Need is irrelevant. The truth is. The fact that there are 10 bottles there is true. It doesn't matter whether man needs to count the bottles, or indeed, count anything, in the same way man never needed to know the Sun is a burning ball of gas, or that the world is round. Nevertheless, it is a fact that the Sun is a burning ball of gas. It is a fact the world is round. In the same way, it is a fact there are 10 bottles.

Therefore, numbers must exist.
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Post by Dishmcds on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:33 am

It isnt written in stone that the sun is a burning ball of gas. In fact, just about everything man or creature has ever done can be discredited simply by knowing that a man or creature came up with the logic behind it.

So numbers do not exist. They are flawed and irrelevant tools for man. Truth lies with faith, rather than mislead hypothesis.
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Post by Enef Freestar on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:35 am

Numbers do exist, for they are in nature, Fibbonaci (sp?) numbers are found in many natural and living things.
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Post by StanWephen on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:38 am

I believe in fundamental truths - truths that have been truth before humans existed and truths that will continue to exist even when humans do not. Am I right in assuming that you believe all truths are made from humans Dish?
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Post by Bob Boblo on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:41 am

When we start with the sequence 1,-1/2, 1/2, -1/3, 1/3, -1/4....then it seems that each negative term cancels the succeeding positive term. Hence, the sum of this sequence has to be 1. Thus

1 + (-1/2) + 1/2 + (-1/3) + 1/3 + ... = 1.

Regrouping terms should not change the sum, so

(1-1/2) + (1/2 - 1/3) + (1/3 - 1/4) + (1/4 - 1/5) + ... = 1

If we use the relation 1/8 - 1/9 = (9-8 )/(8*9) = 1/8*9;
1/14 - 1/15 = (15-14)/14*15 = 1/14*15 etc.

Hence, we obtain the interesting formula

1/1*2 + 1/2*3 + 1/3*4 + 1/4*5 + ... = 1.

On the other hand, we can use that 1/2*3 = -1/2 + 2/3; 1/3*4 = -2/3 + 3/4, 1/4*5 = -3/4+4/5 etc. and obtain

1 = 1/1*2 + 1/ 2*3 + 1/3*4 + ... = 1/2-1/2 +2/3 -2/3 +3/4-3/4 + ... = 0

EXPLAIN THAT STANNY BOY Razz:lol: Razz:lol: Razz:lol: Razz:lol: Razz


Last edited by Bob Boblo on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Dishmcds on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:43 am

StanWephen wrote:I believe in fundamental truths - truths that have been truth before humans existed and truths that will continue to exist even when humans do not. Am I right in assuming that you believe all truths are made from humans Dish?

Each and every truth laid out in any form to the human mind has to be conveyed by human thought and therefore has to be interpreted by the human brain.

So yes, all truths, whether regarded as textbook fundamental, logical, or otherwise are still human truths and can be proven wrong on the logic that there is no perfect human so there is no perfect human thought.
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Post by Dishmcds on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:44 am

And before humans existed you wouldnt know what was a fundamental truth or not.
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Post by Bob Boblo on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:47 am

Dish, your argument creates a paradoxal loop! pale
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Post by StanWephen on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:47 am

It's hard when there's a guy with sunglasses in the middle of the formula Razz

(9-Cool/(8*9)

btw, I don't think 1/2*3 is the same as -1/2 + 2/3.

EDIT: Well, I'm the philosopher who believes that if a tree falls in the middle of a forest still creates a sound. If we take your view, then a tree that falls in the middle of a forest and there is nobody else around to hear it does not make a sound, in the same way truth does not exist if there are no humans around.
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Post by Bob Boblo on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:51 am

I actually agree with Stan Rolling Eyes
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Post by Bob Boblo on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:52 am

Bob Boblo wrote:
On the other hand, we can use that 1/2*3 = -1/2 + 2/3; 1/3*4 = -2/3 + 3/4, 1/4*5 = -3/4+4/5 etc. and obtain
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Post by StanWephen on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:54 am

Eh? Firstly, 1/2*3 is the same as 0.5*3 which is 1.5. -1/2 is the same as -0.5. 2/3 is the same as 0.666 recurring. -0.5+0.666 recurring makes 0.1666 recurring, not 1.5.

And thanks for your support Bob Cool
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Post by benskis on Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:07 pm

I support Dish... The truth can't be absolute, as it is created by human brain.. so are the numbers..

Does the falling tree makes noise if there is no one to hear it? It's not... cause anybody hears it... Razz
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Post by Bob Boblo on Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:12 pm

benskis wrote:I support Dish... The truth can't be absolute, as it is created by human brain.. so are the numbers..

Does the falling tree makes noise if there is no one to hear it? It's not... cause anybody hears it... Razz

Sound is a series of electromagnetic pulses, the human brain has nothing to do with it
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Post by benskis on Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:21 pm

electromagnetic waves - with it's measurement system was "found" and described by human.. wasn't it Mr.Hertz?
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Post by Bob Boblo on Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:28 pm

benskis wrote:electromagnetic waves - with it's measurement system was "found" and described by human.. wasn't it Mr.Hertz?

I realised you'd say that as soon as I read the post

A human came up with the idea your putting forward though.... Razz
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Post by StanWephen on Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:29 pm

That may be how we measure it but that must mean there's something to measure! These things exist even if humans don't.
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