Philosophy: Do numbers exist?

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Post by Lee Marshal on Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:25 pm

ok, is anyone else confused beyond all mental repair, or is it just me?
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Post by Orranis on Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:05 pm

@Lee:

No, it's probably just you. It's semi-abstract ideas about possible natures of reality that can get really confusing if you don't have guidelines by which to navigate.

Read Descartes' first book in his Principles of Philosophy. It'll explain a lot of stuff and won't take up too much time. He words his proofs very well and doesn't throw in unneccessary long and confusing terms as many other philosophers do. (and really, the first book is more of a reflection on the nature of existence that happens to incorporate some philosophy than anything else).
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Post by THE PM on Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:33 am

Lee your only confused because i designed you to be confused when face with your own fate
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Post by CheeseBall on Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:12 am

StanWephen wrote:It's hard when there's a guy with sunglasses in the middle of the formula Razz

(9-Cool/(8*9)

btw, I don't think 1/2*3 is the same as -1/2 + 2/3.

EDIT: Well, I'm the philosopher who believes that if a tree falls in the middle of a forest still creates a sound. If we take your view, then a tree that falls in the middle of a forest and there is nobody else around to hear it does not make a sound, in the same way truth does not exist if there are no humans around.

I disagree and agree with Stan. First of all sound exists by atoms vibrating in the air, so it doesn't matter whether there is someone there or not.

Second of all, there is a major flaw in your argument Stan of ten bottles. Bottles are objects not numbers. Numbers do not physically exist. They are a mental process by which we recognise the amount of the object. That is why you go two apples plus 3 apples gives you five because the use of the object gives the numbers meaning.
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Post by Lee Marshal on Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:29 pm

THE PM wrote:Lee your only confused because i designed you to be confused when face with your own fate

WRONG....hang on....ay?...... confused
beat
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Post by THE PM on Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:53 pm

thats right BE confused. Because even as you are reading this it is i that is controling you to read, now you are looking confused, then you are thinking to self 'this can't be true..' and finally you return to the computer and think to yourself 'what a idoit'..... yes just as i thought. lol!
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Post by Lee Marshal on Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:23 pm

Ahh, but you seem to forget, i am the one with complete control.
You dont know why, but you grab a nearby hand tool.
You look at it, with a little smile on your face.
You will then wake up in hospital 3 days later, after being knocked out by, what the authorities believe, the hand tool in question falling on your head.

As you are reading this....you are intrigued
"will i really do that....no, i wont.....hang on, thats a nice hammer there.....no, dont look"

Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Post by MidniteXpress on Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:43 pm

i have a related question. if zero represents nothing, does that mean nothing exists?

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Post by CheeseBall on Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:39 pm

here's a question for you, what is nothing?
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Post by Orranis on Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:30 pm

The absence of space, time, and matter (the three fundamental components of this existence)

The argument towards sound is that the sound is only created in a person's mind when those vibrations are registered by the eardrums and without the eardrums to register the vibrations and the mind to interpret the vibrations the "sound" does not exist in its form as we know it. It exists in another form, but not the one we know.

Use of objects give number meaning? Use of numbers give objects meaning. the use of our concept of 3 will not give meaning to what is in fact 5 apples. Only the usage of our concept of 5 will give meaning to the 5 apples.

OOOOH! WHAT A PREEETTYY HAMMER!!!
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Post by CheeseBall on Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:14 pm

Our ears interpret the sound, but a sound is still a sound.

No because you learn the object then the number not the other way around. The objects are what allows us to have the concept of numbers.
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Post by Lee Marshal on Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:52 pm

You sunk my scrabbleship
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Post by Orranis on Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:02 pm

Not necessarily, for if only I existed; alone in this universe, I would have access to the concept of there being multiple existences regardless of her ony being one of me.

The multiples do not exist, but I can imagine them existing through the idea of there being multiple things.
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Post by CheeseBall on Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:17 am

'Not necessarily, for if only I existed; alone in this universe, I would
have access to the concept of there being multiple existences
regardless of her ony being one of me.'

Not true, you assume you would, for all you know you would only recognise the concept of one because that is all you know.


'The multiples do not exist, but I can imagine them existing through the idea of there being multiple things.'

Ahh but we gain the idea of multiples by seeing multiples.
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Post by Orranis on Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:27 am

Yet to recognize that there are multiples one must have an understanding (however slight) of the nature of seperate existences. Otherwise one would not be able to recognize the seperate existences as seperate.

Aside:

<CheeseBall enters a clearing. Orranis is seated by a rock with a knife against the blindfolded Princesses's throat>

Orranis: So, it is down to you, and it is down to me... If you wish
her dead, by all means keep moving forward.

CheeseBall: Let me explain.

Orranis: There's nothing to explain. You're trying to kidnap what I
have rightfully stolen.

CheeseBall: Perhaps, an arrangement can be reached?

Orranis: There will be no arrangement, and you're killing her.

CheeseBall: Well if there can be no arrangement, then we are at an
impasse.


Sorry about that, I had The Princess Bride stuck in my head; So all that to state the conclusion.

We're at an impasse.

Neither of us knows the fundamental theorems on how an aware existence comes to the realization of the existence of quantity.

Really, I am sorry about the extremely random quote, but it is an awesome book and movie.
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Post by Alex Steiner on Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:26 pm

*jumps in the deep end*I think that numbers don't exist as physical things (obviously), only as concepts; so it comes down to whether you think concepts count as existing...
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Post by MidniteXpress on Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:40 pm

Alex Steiner wrote:*jumps in the deep end*I think that numbers don't exist as physical things (obviously), only as concepts; so it comes down to whether you think concepts count as existing...

i think therefore i am comes to mind

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Post by CheeseBall on Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:17 pm

Orranis wrote:Yet to recognize that there are multiples one must have an understanding (however slight) of the nature of seperate existences. Otherwise one would not be able to recognize the seperate existences as seperate.

Aside:



Orranis: So, it is down to you, and it is down to me... If you wish
her dead, by all means keep moving forward.

CheeseBall: Let me explain.

Orranis: There's nothing to explain. You're trying to kidnap what I
have rightfully stolen.

CheeseBall: Perhaps, an arrangement can be reached?

Orranis: There will be no arrangement, and you're killing her.

CheeseBall: Well if there can be no arrangement, then we are at an
impasse.


Sorry about that, I had The Princess Bride stuck in my head; So all that to state the conclusion.

We're at an impasse.

Neither of us knows the fundamental theorems on how an aware existence comes to the realization of the existence of quantity.

Really, I am sorry about the extremely random quote, but it is an awesome book and movie.

I'm pretty sure I come off better in that scene, (saw it in school) Razz Razz
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Post by Donatio on Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:25 pm

OK, here's the explanation for what's wrong with Boblo's argument - quite a good example mind. The final expression doesn't converge, it keeps swapping between -1 and 1. When it doesn't converge it doesn't make sense to group the terms off at infinty and so it isn't true to say it's equal to 0.

A good example of convergence: what is

1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + 1/5 + ... equal to?
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Post by Ip Lockard on Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:35 pm

Aklamas wrote:
A good example of convergence: what is

1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + 1/5 + ... equal to?

Reminds me of:

An infinite number of mathmaticians enter a pub, the first orders a pint, the second half a pint, the third a quarter of a pint.....
The barman says "You're all idiots" and pours two pints.
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Post by Lee Marshal on Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:06 pm

IM SOOO CONFUSED
I CANT TAKE IT ANY MORE
*DIVES AT MONITOR*

Laughing
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Post by Deathtoll32 on Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:58 pm

Boo Numbers!!! Mad Mad Mad

Due to numbers, I have to do math Razz
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Post by MidniteXpress on Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:22 pm

it is an accepted theory that number are the basic coding for everything that exists. it is also an accepted theory that idiots will quote famous people to make themselve look more intelligent than they actually are....which reminds me of something Einstein once said...


Last edited by MidniteXpress on Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Orranis on Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:52 pm

@CheeseBall: yah, but I couldn't go and seem to insult you, so I had to give you Wesley's role. Both guys are awesome though, so I'm still happy. It was the conclusion that I used it for.
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Post by CheeseBall on Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:11 am

lol fair enough Very Happy
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