Is capitalism the biggest failure in human history?

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Post by Kittten on Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:11 am

Well, best system given how we think, and how divided the people on this dumb little planet are... feh...
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Post by John Forseti on Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:39 am

Greed is good, so long as we remember it is a means to an end rather than the end in and of itself. Which is something I think the financial empires of the world forgot, and hence why we are staring down the barrel of what might just be the greater depression.

Also, no communism can be a dictatorship as communism is an anarchistic theory, it is about dismantling the state and it's instruments because in any formal state there must be a class structure for it to function, and that's rather the opposite of what they want to achieve.
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Post by Kittten on Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:52 am

How is greed good?

And i wouldn't describe communism as anarchism, anarchism is anarchism, you can tell by the different names.
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Post by Bremer on Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:04 pm

John, are you on drugs?

Greed is good, communism is anarchy...
Really, communism is actually VERY different from anarchy, as comunism requires a very strong government and anarchy requires no government.
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Post by John Forseti on Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:25 pm

Anarchism is a broad term that encompasses many different anarchistic theories, just like a cancer is broad term that encompasses many different cancers.

Communism is all about no government, Marx tells you to overthrow the state, destroy the burgois oppressor, dismantle the capitalist class system. No government, no state, no classes. A society without a state is a society in a state of anarchy, ergo communism is an anarchistic theory.If any government is involved enforcing it's decrees all over the place you've got totalitarian socialism not communism. Try reading up on some communism before talking about it.

How is greed good? Well, it motivates people. Most people want the 'finer things' things that are nice but not necessary to live, comfy chairs, big screen TVs, high-spec computers and so on. Now they're not going to be able to make these things themselves so they'll either have to steal them, and get locked in prison and have even less, or buy them, in which case they have them. To buy things you need money, to get money you need to work. My work enriches my employer, providing products or services to sell to others and enabling them to expand and hire more workers, so more people are able to buy their comforts. With all this disposable income sloshing around some enterprising person might come up with a new-fangled product to sell, because he want money aswell so he can afford more of those finer things, and thus a new company is born employing more people and so on. Oh look, a market economy, slap a bit of regulation on to make sure things stay fair, bit of competition rules and there you have it. A wealthy, comfortable and advanced society.

If people didn't want money and the finer things they'd grow their crops build their furniture, thatch their roofs and that'd be the end of it. People who are motivated soley by the love their field are so few and far between that their impact would be absolutely minuscule and humanity would have probably never developed farther than small bronze-age farming communities or what have you.
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Post by Kittten on Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:35 pm

Aye but greed is what causes poverty, etc.

And you're wrong on communism, it's true that anarchism has several schools, but communism isn't one of them, please don't tell me to 'read up' on it when politics were a large part of my degree...
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Post by John Forseti on Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:49 pm

Well maybe you should read up on it, as it sounds like your degree isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Karl Marx, that guy who invented the whole thing, said communism would be the final stage of human development, where the there would be no state(common ownership and no class etc.). Anarchism is defined as that range of political theories that deal in the abolition or absense of the state. So any study of communism past cold-war propaganda would tell you by definition that communism is an anarchistic theory. The Soviet Union, China and any other state ruled by a 'communist' party never got to that stage, they stuck with totalitarian socialism.

EDIT: Tense + expansion.
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Post by Kittten on Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:04 pm

Marx did suggest overthrow of the bourgoise, yes, but he wanted everyone to give what they could contribute to society, and receive what they need - and that requires an administration system, a government - what he wanted to abolish was the ownership of property and means of production by a rich few.
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Post by John Forseti on Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:11 pm

That's stage one of the communist revolution, Socialism: the dictatorship of the proletariat and the overthrow of the bourgeois, Marx says so himself and it is not where Marxism ends. Socialism is supposed to be the transition stage between capitalism and communism, from state to no-state. The problem is no communist revolution has so far left that stage. This is because it is impossible given human nature, which is why capitalism is so succesful and a benevolent socialism with a hybrid market is the best we can hope for.
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Post by Kittten on Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:15 pm

but how could communism function without a state? you need someone to distribute food/everything, and that would have to be that person/people's jobs, so they would be doing exactly what the state does...
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Post by John Forseti on Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:27 pm

Who said it had to function? That's why it's political theory, not fact. Just like the rest of anarchy theory, communism is impossible when you take on a half-way realistic view.

And since you've admitted no one would get on with distibuting food and goods without being employed to do so you've also shown why greed is good.
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Post by Kittten on Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:32 pm

*headdesk*
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Post by SaraDroz on Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:37 pm

yep end result of communisn is no state and socialism is transition - John is right here according to Marx.
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Post by Kittten on Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:39 pm

*cough* marxism =/= communism *cough*
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Post by John Forseti on Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:53 pm

Well if you consider that Marx was the one who developed communism, then Marxism kind of, you know, does equal communism, anything else is just calling itself communism. Michael Jackson can call himself normal and well-adjusted as much as he likes, but that doesn't make it true.
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Post by Kittten on Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:01 pm

Trotsky, anyone?
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Post by John Forseti on Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:08 pm

Trotsky was a Marxist, Trotskyism is a variant implementation of the Socialist Stage that built on Marx and opposed Stalinism, he focussed on democracy and world-wide revolution rather than Stalin's totalitarian top-down control and isolationism.
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Post by Bob Boblo on Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:10 pm

There is no clear-clut definition of communism.

It was around in other forms before Marx and there will bo other forms after.

Just like there are different brands of liberalism, conservatism etc.
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Post by Bremer on Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:11 pm

You obviously didn't understand the theory.

Marx believed that after Socialism, the society would evolve in such fashion that there wouldn't be the need for a central government, that the people would judge the people. So the concept isn't that we would develop anarchism, but rather that we would mantain order by ourselves, with no need for a central government.

"Greed is the selfish desire for the pursuit of money, wealth, power, food, or other possessions, especially when this denies the same goods to others."
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Post by Kittten on Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:07 pm

<too drunk to reply coherantly>
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Post by Nemo Mobilis on Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:31 pm

Exactly, communism is a utopia, there is no state, you simply take and give back and there are enough people around the world to fill all the needs for every other persons want. It simply doesn't work. A bunch of people show up at a college and want to make a statement about the wordl, they want to topple the government. You then get Marxists arguing with followers of Lenin, then the Maoists show up. Week by week the numbers dwindle, eventually one of the more enterpising members finds a plot of land that can be easily afforded and could house six people. He proposes his idea to the group. The people who are left at this point are only there to argue about their idea and win the debate, furthermore they consider taking the industrious memebr up on the plan. To continue the debate they begin work on moving into a communal farm, so they can argue over who will do what and what property belongs to who, will there by monogomy, what records get played. This is the breakdown of any communist ideal. The very idea that people exist who may disagree with you is the weak point.
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Post by count drakula on Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:23 am

I say that Capitalism is good. It may keep everyone in the same place but Communism will never work for human beings(I am a communist). If it did work then it would be great but seeing as it never does I think Capitalism works well as it is even with its problems. dunno

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Post by Bob Boblo on Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:44 am

count drakula wrote:(I am a communist).

Have you joined PCP? Smile
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Post by Taytaz on Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:27 am

Ok, you can have extremely anti-Marxist communism, take...Maoism, a very well defined and powerful state that was designed for the long haul. Just as there are multiple forms of Evilism, I mean capitalism (did I say that our loud?) communism can be adapted to the community
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Post by SaraDroz on Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:30 am

Problem is that having a state at all is socialicm, when communisn is achieved the state dissolves...
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