Is capitalism the biggest failure in human history?

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Is capitalism the biggest failure in human history? Empty Is capitalism the biggest failure in human history?

Post by Bob Boblo on Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:28 am

Its been around pretty much since the dawn of civilisation, and yet still a huge portion of the world live in squalor, and even the prosperous countries have always had underprivaleged citizens.
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Post by shadow on Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:50 am

Admin warning to all


keep it clean and don't start insulting each other to prove you are right. Make arguments based on facts and respect other ppl's opinion.


if this is going to turn out into another flame treads (like all the previous communism vs. capitalism treads we've had) this is going to get locked faster then you can say "omgweneedgovernmentintervention"


another thing, PCP and RL communism are not the same




edit: pertamaxxxx!!!!!


Last edited by shadow on Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:37 am; edited 3 times in total
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Post by malta_1990 on Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:00 am

Although I disagree with capitalism, I would not say it is a failure. I'm all in favour of the mixed economy where both capitalist and interventionist features are applied in the economy.
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Post by shadow on Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:10 am

I think capitalism is the oldest system there is. It's also the most human system. Granted, it's far from perfect and it's evil and dirty system, but imo it's the best since it fits the most our corrupted nature and way of thinking.

I would love to believe in communism, I would like nothing more then for it to work, but I know it never will. It never will due to us humans not being able to share and look beyond our own greed.
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Post by malta_1990 on Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 am

shadow wrote:I would love to believe in communism, I would like nothing more then for it to work, but I know it never will. It never will due to us humans not being able to share and look beyond our own greed.

Now I do agree with this. Utopian Communism is an amazing ideal, but sadly, it will never work. Having said this, I disagree that it is because of an inherent greed in humanity however. Some people are more greedy than others and unfortunately they bring down the rest of humanity.
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Post by shadow on Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:41 am

malta_1990 wrote:
shadow wrote:I would love to believe in communism, I would like nothing more then for it to work, but I know it never will. It never will due to us humans not being able to share and look beyond our own greed.

Now I do agree with this. Utopian Communism is an amazing ideal, but sadly, it will never work. Having said this, I disagree that it is because of an inherent greed in humanity however. Some people are more greedy than others and unfortunately they bring down the rest of humanity.


yes, but the problem with communism is, is that's like a chain, one weak link and the whole chain becomes weak. And then the mistake is made that history has proven to be made every time: communist leaders will try to remove those "weak links". And then a utopian communist state turns into a vicious dictatorial regime that's trying to sustain itself by letting the ppl believe that the lie they are living in is real.
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Post by malta_1990 on Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:22 am

As I said, some people are more greedy than others and unfortunately they bring down the rest of humanity. Both communist dictators and selfish capitalists fit in this category.
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Post by twaters on Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:42 am

I can see this becoming another question in and of itself, but i would agree that greed is in the nature of human beings. It's hardly a 'one weak link' in the chain: if we look at RL communist revolutions, we see that they are largely built upon the 'proletariat' seeking to 'redistribute' wealth from the rich....from which they stand to be better off. It's like John Lennon singing about the ideal of no possessions from a mansion in America (where he's moved to escape British (welfare) taxes...

Those with the kind of sacrificial ideals are few. However, luckily, within PCP we have a collection of such people, (maybe because sacrifice isn't as difficult when you're only sacrificing in-game wealth). But i would disagree that we have to root out and eliminate weak links - the smaller the chain gets, the shorter it can reach. The reality is that all the links are weak, but with mutual support, systems and encouragement a chain can be upheld.

Whereas in my view, capitalism focusses on an the self, and exploiting those 'weaknesses' to gain as much material benefit. I think it denies a fundamental element of human existence, and has long been recognised as a dangerous ideal.
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Post by malta_1990 on Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:51 am

But thankfully, no one is fully Communist or fully Capitalist. A balance must be reached. Sure, its nice to gain material benefit, but its also nice to help others and share. Although greed is in the nature of the human being, so is friendship and caring for the less fortunate.
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Post by Patrick Reckitt on Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:15 am

I agree with malta, any politcal or economic system must be mixed to be successful. Elements of capitalism and socialism are nessercery evils (depending on how you see things) after all.
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Post by THE PM on Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:15 am

The main reson why Captialism work and communism doesn't is because while communism goes against are human psyic e.g. greed and self intrest while captialism work with this ideas in mind. Thus with a captialism you get growth because everyone is trying to progess themselves.
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Post by THE PM on Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:18 am

Also the with communism because everyone is equal then noone has the right to lead thus this leads to civil disorder
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Post by rastari on Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:23 am

and in the end these reason are also why captilism doesn't wor every body want's more money and so the country advances then everybody put's this money ahead of everything and you get serious social issues and people take far too big risks for this money and loose any common sence and the system collapses boom and bust what you want is nationalised industry with enough room for people to grow eg a wage cap lets say of 100k a year that way people can aspire to earn more money and you get the positives of capitalism, nothing going to go bust because it's in the hands of the country and the joeeveryman on the street is earning far much more money because the wealth is shared
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Post by THE PM on Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:29 am

@Rastari: what you are descibing is called 'leveling' a policy that was thought up during the King V Parliment English civil war. Although its a nice idea i can't work because the money you have also repersents power so by doing this the 'old elties' will lsoe there power. They will not allow this to happen
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Post by Pliped on Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:34 am

Socalism is a nice mix

if Labour were still socalist i would think they had a chance
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Post by MidniteXpress on Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:45 pm

erep brings up an interesting thought. the PCP are a democratic communist party, any weak link or corruption can be voted out. this seems to over-ride communisms weakness. maybe RL communism needs to be redesigned to truely work.

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Post by Patrick Reckitt on Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:04 pm

Well, as I've said Democratic Socialism follows very similar ideals to the PCP, so theoretically there is already a reworking of Communism.
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Post by CheeseBall on Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:04 pm

Indeed lots of people like socialist ideas, they help maintain the human rights of all yet allow others to become relatively richer, which is ok.
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Post by Taytaz on Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:10 pm

Is capitalism the biggest failure in human history? Cocaco10Socialism is actually awesome, if you think of Communism as a room, and everybody is on the floor, nobody can rise above the ceiling, but nobody falls through the floor. Socialism allows some to rise through the ceiling, but never at the expense of removing the floor
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Post by SaraDroz on Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:10 pm

It's like Churchill said about democracy: "It's the worst thing possible apart from everthing else thats been tried".
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Post by Dishmcds on Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:26 pm

rastari wrote:and in the end these reason are also why captilism doesn't wor every body want's more money and so the country advances then everybody put's this money ahead of everything and you get serious social issues and people take far too big risks for this money and loose any common sence and the system collapses boom and bust what you want is nationalised industry with enough room for people to grow eg a wage cap lets say of 100k a year that way people can aspire to earn more money and you get the positives of capitalism, nothing going to go bust because it's in the hands of the country and the joeeveryman on the street is earning far much more money because the wealth is shared

For once, I actually agree with almost everything twaters said, and I think it's probably the clearest picture that's been painted thus far. Utopian Communism is probably the best set up any society can hope for. It's shared wealth, completely free of social and economic class, and selfless.

However, as I have always argued, it has not and will not work due to the process of Utopian Communism being run by humanity. The problem is not in the process of implementing nor the realisation of Communism, it lies in the fact that it takes humans to carry it out. There will always be those of us (whether I am part of this group or not, honestly doesnt matter to me) who are out to help others, care about the situations others are in, and so on. But inherently there will always be those who are corrupt or corruptable. Communism, even at it's truest sense needs a heirarchy of leadership, which is human borne, which is just as corruptable as capitalism, even at it's truest form.

The reason I highlighted the above:

You cannot blame the problems of society on capitalism. Even Communism, when grown too large for the systematic implementation for which it was designed carries large social and economic problems for which the heirarchy (see above) must deal with. People will always and have always been lost in the cracks in both Communism and Capitalism, so you cannot apply that to Capitalism alone.

And that's without bringing the past failures of the Governments who, under the pretense of Communism murdered millions of people in trying to create their little Utopian failures. Capitalism has it's risks as well, but Capitalism is also not a form of Government, so the death of millions can't really be related to it either.
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Post by Pliped on Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:35 pm

Animal Farm by George Orwell.......end of for me really
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Post by SaraDroz on Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:45 pm

"Utopian Communism" - Utopian is the operative word and a Utopia is not possible when we are all animals.
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Post by Nemo Mobilis on Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:34 pm

So we all pretty much agree then, Utopian Communism is impossible to create, because how can we expect the whole of humanity to unanimously want to do anything all the time. Sure today I feel like making auto's and tomorrow I want to be a painter, but how do you do that, there's training for one of those, and a loss of prodution if you decide to stop showing up, and no foreman to tell you what to do, because who would be in a position above you to tell you what to do. Laissez Faire capitalism is worse, Ayn Rand is a ghoul in my opinion, a scary thing you tell your children about to keep them in bed at night. The very notion that somehow by working for the best personal profit society as a whole will be better off, a farce! So we can agree a nominally socialist country with certain economic freedoms is best for humanity. until we can reach some crazy utopia where our minds are all etehreal and we have no corporeal bodies.
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Post by Taytaz on Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:39 am

Am I the only person who disagrees?
I won't argue, because it really is a matter of confidence in humanity, it is stupid to dismiss the viability of something just because you think a link would break, the problem is that no Communist governments have been run by communists, instead, imperialists riding the communist wave, like mao
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