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Post by rastari on Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:35 pm

because you can quite easily get around them through proxy servers or more sophisticated techniques of which i have no knowledge if big brown is watching right now and some loony right wing group was trying to have madworld not be published in the uk on the topic of video game censorship
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Post by Taytaz on Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:05 pm

Know, how can I agree with both of you
Damn Far left libertarianism
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Post by Ares989 on Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:08 pm

twaters wrote:

Ares, you has the same monarch for quite a while.

What? When did we ever have a Quenn/King?
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Post by Taytaz on Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:13 pm

Dubya?
Iunno what twaters means...
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Post by Bremer on Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:18 pm

Bush...........
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Post by Ares989 on Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:35 pm

i dont know why so many people hate bush. He did a great job in office and still is a great president in my opionion. (In case you havnt figured it out im republican)
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Post by Nemo Mobilis on Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:38 pm

Actually in the case of Australia there is no getting around it as I understand, the nation will control all of the internet and ISP's, they pick what sites willbe allowed and what shows up.
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Post by Taytaz on Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:50 pm

Ok, I officially do not want to debate this but:
1. Bush started to crap wars
2. Bush pushed deregulation of market and as a consequence, broke the world economy
3. Holds records for lowest ever approval rating, lowest average approval rating and lowest approval rating of an outgoing prwsident not impeached
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Post by Nemo Mobilis on Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:00 pm

Exactly, that's why we're all here, we hate America. (said in Rik Mayall voice)
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Post by Ares989 on Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:15 pm

Taytaz wrote:Ok, I officially do not want to debate this but:
1. Bush started to crap wars
2. Bush pushed deregulation of market and as a consequence, broke the world economy
3. Holds records for lowest ever approval rating, lowest average approval rating and lowest approval rating of an outgoing prwsident not impeached

What was he supposed to do, do what Bill Clinton did and lob a few mistles out there? he has the low apporval rating because he was countering the 9/11 attacks, you werent in the US that day, and if he wouldnt have, im sure something similar would have happend (Again).
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Post by Taytaz on Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:26 pm

So he attacks Afghanistan, which is possibly a good move, but what about Iraq?
and point 2 and 3

You can address, but i dont want to argue Very Happy
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Post by Pagan on Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:54 am

On 9/11:
I was astonished watching it semi-live on the day (I was on the net talking with a business parter (in USA) at the time) and I have seen the majority of the footage that most channels covered, including US, UK and Irish TV channels.

I personally think it was a brilliant tactic and a true masterpiece of organisation, but I don't for one minute believe that "Terrorists" were involved unless we refer to Bush's Government (CIA included) as "Terrorists".

It was a perfect platform to start unilateral attacks on Afgahnistan and Iraq.
If it was "Terrorists" from Al Quada that performed it, then I totally understand going into Afgahnistan, but I will never believe the BS story about WMD's in Iraq.

Look at what the US gained by taking over both countries...
Oil (2nd and 3rd highest Oil producers in world at the time)
Major Defence Contracts (most of high up's in government were shareholders in the companies who "won" the contracts)
Territory/Military Bases (to protect Israel and/or to launch more attacks later from)
Two borders with Iran (more if you include the US friendly countries in Mid East)
A government with one goal, that the citizens are very happy with

Bush wanted Iran, that was and still is his #1 target, but the US population would never have went along with an agressive war, so an excuse was thought up...Terrorists (aka Bogeymen).

We live in a fear induced state in the world since 9/11.
All our governments control us using fear.
How many failed (fake) attacks has the UK and US had in the last few years ? The majority of media, especially TV, are either purposefully or unintentionally going along with it and bringing into our homes each night news of unimagined horror waiting around the corner from us.
News TV channels are selling more advertising space that ever before ($$$).

But you can't see any of this until you take a step back, have an open mind, and look into things happening in the world from an alternative perspective.
You'll be surprised how quickly things become crystal clear.

Sorry for such a long post.
tl;dr Bush sucks, but he is a clever f**ker Smile
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Post by Taytaz on Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:53 am

Pagan wrote:
We live in a fear induced state in the world since 9/11.
All our governments control us using fear.
How many failed (fake) attacks has the UK and US had in the last few years ? The majority of media, especially TV, are either purposefully or unintentionally going along with it and bringing into our homes each night news of unimagined horror waiting around the corner from us.
News TV channels are selling more advertising space that ever before ($$$).


Sorry for such a long post.
tl;dr Bush sucks, but he is a clever f**ker Smile

Italics, means I think it is true
Bold means I lol at it Razz
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Post by John Forseti on Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:45 am

CCTV Cameras in public places are fine by me. Whether it's one or one hundred. If the operators are looking at women they should be sacked for not doin g their job, that's not a criticism of CCTV cameras, if a woman, or anyone for that matter, is out in public people will see them, do you want to make it a crime for passer's by to steal a few glances? If CCTV cameras start pointing at people's home or go up in residential areas without resident's permission then, and only then are you starting to get into the 'Big Brother' zone.

The DNA database is a fine idea in principle, but holding the data of a 60million + individuals, safely securely and efficiently is just something the government is not capable of doing, and I wouldn't trust a future Tory government not to sell it to insurance or marketing companies.

ID Cards are fine as long as they optional for the general public, I don't like the idea of being required to carry them in peace-time, it's like needing a liscense to go outside.

President Bush;
Enron
Iraq
Torture
Guantanamo
Patriot Act
Domestic Spying
Deregulation
National Debt

He really has not been good for America.
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Post by Nemo Mobilis on Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:28 pm

John this all seems like a keen idea to keep people safe, but when you give away these freedoms to anyone, no matter how benevolant you invite the opportunity down the road of people you DON'T want to have that power gaining it. Lets say we start losing arable land, or mass flooding starts limiting living space in the UK, and lets say that the economy collapses and there are food riots and bank runs. People looking for security will turn to people who may not have their best interest in mind, then you get a authoritarian government who knows where you're at in the country, can trace you through DNA and cards and has cameras everywhere. As for the blokes fired from the cctv's, those were government employees, you can't think that people won't be constantly abusing their privileges.
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Post by twaters on Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:01 pm

The USA had a monarch when it was owned by Britain Razz
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Post by John Forseti on Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:44 pm

Nemo Mobilis wrote:John this all seems like a keen idea to keep people safe, but when you give away these freedoms to anyone, no matter how benevolant you invite the opportunity down the road of people you DON'T want to have that power gaining it. Lets say we start losing arable land, or mass flooding starts limiting living space in the UK, and lets say that the economy collapses and there are food riots and bank runs. People looking for security will turn to people who may not have their best interest in mind, then you get a authoritarian government who knows where you're at in the country, can trace you through DNA and cards and has cameras everywhere. As for the blokes fired from the cctv's, those were government employees, you can't think that people won't be constantly abusing their privileges.

What freedoms am I giving up? When I'm out on the street people can see me anyway so I don't care if there are CCTV cameras, as long as ID cards remain optional for the general public, keyword: optional, then I'm fine. I already oppose the DNA database. And people will abuse their powers, that's a statement of fact, but should we therefore get rid of all police, armed forces or any kind of authority? No. There's nothing we can do about it except try and minimise it.
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Post by Nemo Mobilis on Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:55 pm

The only way the cards will work is if they are not optional, if I'm a terrorist do i want to sign up for the ID card, the cards will be mandatory. As for using them exclusively in a time of war currently we are in a "global war on terror", we are fighting an idea that never ends. Moreover the difference between people seeing you on the street and cameras watching you're every move is that you can generally see who's wathcing you, and usually they aren't a person who can send you up the river for life with the right paperwork. It's a slippery slop to a dictatorship.
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Post by John Forseti on Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:25 pm

Slippery Slope? That one of the biggest logical fallacies of them all, right up there with the ad hominem. Unless you can tell me how exactly CCTV cameras lead to the other throw of democracy without wild assumptions I can't see this discussion going any further.

And even if ID Cards became mandatory, other European countries, like Belgium, have similar systems and they haven't 'slipped' into dictatorships, in fact quite a few have come out of them.
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Post by Nemo Mobilis on Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:02 pm

Alright, think of cctv's as part of a whole, one piece of a clock. you need multiple pieces to really make something work, so for the time being we have the cameras and soon the cards, then control over ISP's. There's also the extensions of power, now people have a hard time going to parks and taking photgraphs without police arriving to confiscate their cameras for either "anti terror" reasons or to stop paedophiles. Look at America, because of the government we elected in 8 years we have built an imperial presidency in which the executive branch wields a ton of pwoer and has unlimited control over new agencies designed sepcifically to monitor americans in ways that re largely considered illegal. We went from zero to sixty like that. All it took was a single incident. you already have the cameras, and a few more pieces ar elined up, and if the right spark sets off the public then "fwoom" you have a police state. The "slippery slope" is when you invite bad things into your home and hope they don't do bad things when you're not paying attention.
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Post by RomanSoldier on Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:22 pm

Oo they're not called dresses =] (mostly worn to get attention from women..and BTW it works every time =p)

2:dont think we should argue about 9/11 and different opinions of what happened (some Americans actually may feel quite insulted by it)

3: if u take porn off the internet it loses about 80% of its users with 1 site left saying "BRING BACK THE PORN!!@~@~$%"

4:CCTV help with getting Criminals when they try lie about where they were at a certain times =p

5:DNA thing is a bit odd..but if someone was raped and murdered..and body found...we have the killer, or showing up at a crime scene with blood everywhere Oo

4 and 5 : Im sure these methods are why they're put up/planned but can be overused/taken advantage of in some areas =p
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Post by Dishmcds on Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:11 pm

Re: 9/11

I had friends in those Towers, lost them, and would quite appreciate it if we didnt rehash details please. It's not the happiest moments of my life.
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Post by Ares989 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:17 pm

sorry but Dish i understand that, the thing is though when they say the towers were PERPOSLY destroyed by the government, it just ticks me off that you can think that. How can a government sit back and perposly kill citizens? sorry if it makes you sad dish, i just thought it was much needed to know info.
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Post by Taytaz on Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:21 pm

I agree that anybody that beleibes Bush, as bad as I think he may be, would kill his own people, obviously doesn't understand Bush at all
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Post by Taytaz on Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:23 pm

I'm pretty sure you already have loads of CCTV anyway in the UK, because of IRA stuff
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