Koans

When a tree falls in a forest, but there's none around to hear it, was there then a sound?

*is enlightened*

(therefore making this almost a real koan)

Of course.

Just because we didn't experience something doesn't mean it didn't happen

tim09 wrote:Just because we didn't experience something doesn't mean it didn't happen

how can tell? you assume it made sound. But sound is only sound when there is someone to experience it.

No, sound waves exist independent of an observer. It takes a human ear and brain to translate the sound waves into something that a human brain can understand, but the sound exists nonetheless.

UNless there is no medium to carry the wave. But we are talking about a forest

there will be all sorts of animals there anyway even if it is an ant....

Lol i hate this question.

Yes.

jerryGFL wrote:there will be all sorts of animals there anyway even if it is an ant....

No, I clearly stated that there is nothing, nor noone to hear it.

shadow wrote:

tim09 wrote:Just because we didn't experience something doesn't mean it didn't happen

how can tell? you assume it made sound. But sound is only sound when there is someone to experience it.

Thats like saying that the world was only created when life was around to experience it.

Which is just as stupid

Regardless of there being nothing around to hear the sound, sound is actually there.
Tree hits floor, causes vibration, causes sound, we all have fun.

If there's no-one around to experience it, how do you know the tree falls in the first place? I think Shadow's lying to us, he was there all along. Probably illegally logging the tree to make dirty capitalist profit.

However, actually on topic, it's known (so i'm told) from Physics investigations that light acts differently when it's observed to when it's not. How can we know for sure that sound does not behave (or misbehave!) in a similar fashion? We would normally assume that as the tree is falling the same way as if we were there, it would make a sound, because it does when we're there. However, what if our mere presence is a factor?

Our presence isn't a factor.
We could tell that the tree makes a sound in other ways than us being there to witness it.

We could record the audio of the tree falling (and not only from nearby, but from a great distance.. so our presence wouldn't be a factor at all) and would hear the tree.

I can't see how light acts differently when there's no-one there to see it.. that would mean that there's some sort of reaction from it - meaning a chemical reaction from us? or like meaning the light is a living thing?

I don't know how it works. That's the point. When light is observed, it behaves as we know it to. When it's not being observed, it doesn't.

As for recording the sound, that still counts as observing.

Skinny Bones Jones wrote:
I can't see how light acts differently when there's no-one there to see it.. that would mean that there's some sort of reaction from it - meaning a chemical reaction from us? or like meaning the light is a living thing?

He's right on this one - gimme a sec I'll see if I can dig out the youtube video that shows it really well.
Aha - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q4_nl0ICao
That's what he means.

It's a bit of a mind-bender though.

Ip Lockard wrote:

Skinny Bones Jones wrote:
I can't see how light acts differently when there's no-one there to see it.. that would mean that there's some sort of reaction from it - meaning a chemical reaction from us? or like meaning the light is a living thing?

He's right on this one - gimme a sec I'll see if I can dig out the youtube video that shows it really well. 
Aha - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q4_nl0ICao
That's what he means.


It's a bit of a mind-bender though.

haha good video. Yeah you have to love shy electrons.



That video suggests the Tree could just turn into a chicken if no ones watching it though. 



I think the better question is using the cat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN-jCuV7BoU 



Is the cat dead or not? 

our ears have dampeners in them anyway, so the actual sounds we hear are not how loud a sound actually is.

If the tree is on earth yes it would make a sound!

Ip, that video suggests that particles are alive, and not only alive, but know when they're being observed.

This will sound silly for me to say, but I honestly don't beleive it is true.
Also.
The cat video is different to the funky science lecture video. The cat video explains that when we aren't there we have to assume all posibilities, and the science video makes out that particles realise we're around and act differently because of that.

Reminds me of his dark materials... sounds awfully like dust.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=usTOM8vffB4
Little explanation on the ligth comment twat-ers made

Light is affected by various quantum phenomena in a way that sound is not, they are two completely different types of wave. But back to the original question, it depends on your definition of sound. If you consider a sound to be something you can hear, then if there is nobody to hear there can be no sound. If you consider sound to be a compression wave travelling through the air, then it does not require anyone to hear it. But, as already mentioned, if there was nobody to observe it, how would you know the tree ever actually fell down?