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Post by KIA Sneak on Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:23 am

This is a reply to the comments in the other topic. Sorry its off topic but this is an off topic section and i'm sure we can just add it to the end of our posts on this. 

First i want to say something about your comments saying hes elected and therefore allowed to make his own mistakes. 


I am the president of the UK elected by the people and so using your argument i could steal all the money in the UK account and there would be no reason to start a thread or slander my name? 

As an elected official he must be monitored so that everyone knows not to vote him in again. Yes he can make mistakes but then all we require is an apology or a discussion on why he did it. 



"Communism wont work, because once you have people in power they wont leave it."

Again this depends on the kind of person you are. It’s not in a capitalists nature to give up power but communism requires it if it’s of benefit to the group.

Since taking the role of presidency i have not been doing my best and personally think i would be of better use as a VP (hate admin stuff). 

this all said i have talked to several members of my party over the last few months to negotiate my stepping down and unfortunately no one wants to take my place. 



After the next election i will not be putting my self up at the party election and my party has been informed of this. The main reason is i'm going to uni and don't think i have the time to give erep the attention it deserves. 

finally i only wanted to run for presidency for a maximum of 4 months to try and rival Kalebs reign. After this i always planned to step down as any longer would stifle other peoples chance of getting into power. 

Giving up power is an easy thing to do and i am considered by some to be a control freak (misunderstanding why i believe in protecting the economy).
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Post by Dishmcds on Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:34 am

My comments arent necessarily aimed directly at you either. I am sick of being told what I can and cannot do. IP tells me to justify or quit posting. BS. As a person with admin access (or mod access) to the forums, it's no wonder Nel held onto them for so long. Just because he knows he wont get the last word in he locked it. I explained myself quite a few times.

Now, back to the debate: You may leave power, but those who have ridden your coattails (and yes, through you the PCP has ridden those coattails all the way to the top) will not. There will be at least one group of people who feel they deserve elevated status because of contributions.

Let me relate it to the last thing IP said to me regarding my statement to you: Try earning your reputation before ordering someone around (or something to that effect). You knew what I meant and how, as you and I have had discussions before on an equal playing field, as Presidents. I've voiced my own opinions, and you and I have stayed relatively civil.

For some reason, I dont remember "IP Lockard" ever reaching that. You've shown the reserve, patience, and understanding a President should.

I say: Alain is free to make mistakes. Everyone does, even Presidents. We must take responsibility for those, and if this ends up being a large enough one then it will cost him the political level he had earned up until this point. If anyone had a beef with what he did, then they should have tried to approach him first, rather than outright calling ANYONE a "discrace".

PCP says: Dish says what Alain did isnt bad.

As you can see, they dont translate. As far as you stepping down, I know as well as anyone how time consuming it can be to manage Presidential duties, so I do feel for you there. As I said before, I have always recommended throwing out extreme opinions and settling somewhere in between which helped keep me sane for a long time. I may not like your ideals and you may not agree with mine, but we're both here to stay so we might as well try and get along.
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Post by KIA Sneak on Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:38 am

Dishmcds wrote:And we'll have to disagree. We were borne into the Earth, not the other way around. We were borne of what we eat, etc. and you cannot change that. The more things change, the more they stay the same.....



That really confused me lol..........



My point is there is evidence to suggest you can change people’s views. It may take god like power to know what to do to make the world communist but that’s irrelevant all i say is its a possibility. 

I honestly don't know how such an event could occur or what it would entail but all i know is it could happen.


"Communism will only work if everyone thinks the same. It relies on no corruption and due to our culture that will not happen."


I started my views with this. I never said how culture would change or what it would change to. I backed my argument with facts of how we have changed and how we will continue to do so. 

Saying "we will never change" doesn't prove anything. 

To me that is merely a quote from society and something that "sounds right". Hmmmm how to explain..................

This is the problem i have with your arguments in general. Just because most people think something or it sounds right it doesn't mean its true and unless you can back up a point saying something like that doesn't count as a solution to the discussion. 

it is infact things like "people can't change" and "commies are bad" which make me so annoyed. 

The fact that you haven't been able to comment on any of the text that i have posted suggests to me that you haven't found fault with it. Which again begs the question if you can't find anything wrong with something why dismiss it for something with no backing. 

Either disprove me or agree with me. 
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Post by Ip Lockard on Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:58 am

Dishmcds wrote:My comments arent necessarily aimed directly at you either. I am sick of being told what I can and cannot do. IP tells me to justify or quit posting. BS. As a person with admin access (or mod access) to the forums, it's no wonder Nel held onto them for so long. Just because he knows he wont get the last word in he locked it. I explained myself quite a few times.
I locked the thread because you were simply not going to stop. You made no new points, and dragged the thread off topic into an attack on my politcal beliefs.
Referencing my irrelevant political affiliation all the time was both an attempt to turn my comment into a political war and an underhand jab and you know full well.

Further intentional topic derailing is only going to lead to the same outcome.
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Post by KIA Sneak on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:09 pm

“Now, back to the debate: You may leave power, but those who have ridden your coattails (and yes, through you the PCP has ridden those coattails all the way to the top) will not. There will be at least one group of people who feel they deserve elevated status because of contributions.”

Yes I have to rely on my party being moral but the fact is they don’t want to take over from me. The party is in a great position and anyone who gets PP would stand a very good chance of becoming president and yet none want that power. 

I hope this is for the same reasons as me they all want this country to be run the best way it can be and are all to self critical to think their the best option. 

“You knew what I meant and how, as you and I have had discussions before on an equal playing field, as Presidents. I've voiced my own opinions, and you and I have stayed relatively civil.” 

I think the first time I talked through anything with you was when I was a reserve CO and you where MoD not exactly an equal playing field and it wasn’t helped by the fact I had half the UK shouting at me to tell you to F*** *** and leave Canada alone. 

This may have been why the discussion was only “relatively civil” but the main thing is I don’t anger easily. You are very easy to misunderstand and most of the time I agree with the person complaining about you. 

“or some reason, I dont remember "IP Lockard" ever reaching that. You've shown the reserve, patience, and understanding a President should.”

BTW its Ip not IP and as he’s not a president he can say what he likes. 
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Post by Dishmcds on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:09 pm

But KIA, I already have on several occasions.

Communism in it's Utopic state is the Utopia of civilization because everyone has and no one wants.

The problem is that HUMANS cannot be purely communist. It isnt in animal behaviour. No matter how long you train a bear (or monkey, which I believe was your example), it's still a primate or bear. It will still eat you, or attack you if cornered, and will still be "animal" when it comes down to it.

To dream it is one thing, to live it is another.

As to all your other mess, I've never said "Commie's are bad", which is the PCP (you included) jumping to conclusions. I have problems with your policies, true. I've stated my problems/issues with them, and for the most part you and your higher ranking/more outspoken members are debating with me. I can say that I have had a few successes starting with the beginnings of opening up the Commons and some roles going to people who didnt have before. We have also shared some of the same views on our economy here, although we've probably got different vehicles for delivering, and if you're curious the same text is the same text you've posted in both threads and I've found plenty of faults with it. I've outlined my problems with them, and you're doing nothing more than rehashing arguments on them.

People can change habits, and personalities, KIA. They cant change where they fall on the food chain. We are our own worst enemy, and as we sit here in the same debate they were having two hundred or more years ago it only proves it. You think one way, I think another, and I dont HAVE to disprove you to be correct. Perception is reality, to both you and me alike. If this is truly what you perceive to be true (and I'd like to talk to you in about 5 years when the world isnt quite as shiny as it is now), then so be it. It's not that shiny to me.

And if you want to talk about talking in circles: You say either disprove or assimilate. I say, tell me:

1. Who has the right to ultimately decide what's "best" for the greater good of everyone
2. How he/she himself can be termed communist when they have to be held in a position of power in order to make those decisions.

It's hypocrisy at it's finest, in basic theory.
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Post by Dishmcds on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:13 pm

Ip Lockard wrote:
Dishmcds wrote:My comments arent necessarily aimed directly at you either. I am sick of being told what I can and cannot do. IP tells me to justify or quit posting. BS. As a person with admin access (or mod access) to the forums, it's no wonder Nel held onto them for so long. Just because he knows he wont get the last word in he locked it. I explained myself quite a few times.
I locked the thread because you were simply not going to stop. You made no new points, and dragged the thread off topic into an attack on my politcal beliefs.
Referencing my irrelevant political affiliation all the time was both an attempt to turn my comment into a political war and an underhand jab and you know full well.

Further intentional topic derailing is only going to lead to the same outcome.

I justified my reason for posting. Three times by my count. If you'd care to re-read them, then be my guest. Referrencing my political affiliation in attempt to assimilate me into agreeing with you wont work. If you didnt want to debate, then quit debating. It's simple, really.
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Post by Dishmcds on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:16 pm

And for the record, Alain did make a statement on the appointment of his candidate, who did ask for the job. He said he'd post more later, and should be given the chance to represent his decisions before being called a disGrace by anyone.
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Post by Squiddy on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:20 pm

I completely agree, I wish 'certain' people would get all the facts first before making such a scene about things.
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Post by Bob Boblo on Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:11 pm

Can I ask why is this debate about RL, bieng related to E-rep

The two should be kept apart
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Post by KIA Sneak on Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:25 pm


The problem is that HUMANS cannot be purely communist. It isnt in animal behaviour. No matter how long you train a bear (or monkey, which I believe was your example), it's still a primate or bear. It will still eat you, or attack you if cornered, and will still be "animal" when it comes down to it.

Ok I don’t know what exactly you are complaining about here so I’ll just stick with your example. I’m saying you can train an animal to no retaliate. Again I’m not sure whether its been done as there are so many twisted experiments done by physiologists its hard to know but you could train an animal to take abuse until it dies.  

But I don’t see how humans would be cornered. My explanation of how communism would occur suggests that the change is through peoples beliefs not through acts of strength. No one would be cornered because they want to walk down the right path. 



I can say that I have had a few successes starting with the beginnings of opening up the Commons and some roles going to people who didnt have before.

…….. oh no he didn’t………..

Ok yes you as an outsider have helped cause the rules on transparency to be made official but they where always there before. We did use to post votes and proposals before and full proposals on the forum. 

You also seem to suggest that this was against PCP policy. The thing is we wanted to be more transparent and although the “how” came from roeland we where always willing to get to the stage we are now. Our arguments on the matter where to stop it from becoming to open and I think we have won a victory on that front as the comprise fits both sides. 

“some roles going to people who didnt have before.” 

Who? 


“and if you're curious the same text is the same text you've posted in both threads and I've found plenty of faults with it. I've outlined my problems with them, and you're doing nothing more than rehashing arguments on them.”

??? sorry don’t understand. 

“They cant change where they fall on the food chain.” “We are our own worst enemy”

Two things that sound good but mean absolutely NOTHING. 

I don’t plan to eat something that would normal eat me and yes we kill more humans that other animals so? 

“Perception is reality, to both you and me alike. If this is truly what you perceive to be true (and I'd like to talk to you in about 5 years when the world isnt quite as shiny as it is now), then so be it. It's not that shiny to me.”

The world is not shiny the world is a horrible place but it doesn’t mean you refuse a better option. It’s the difference between a realist and a pessimist. The realist knows things are bad but can accept them getting better. 


“1. Who has the right to ultimately decide what's "best" for the greater good of everyone
2. How he/she himself can be termed communist when they have to be held in a position of power in order to make those decisions.”

Why do I have to have every answer when I am talking about utopia? 

In a communist utopia everyone would know what’s best for the group as it would be their instinct to do the right thing at any given moment. 

This explanation renders the second point invalid as everyone would be equal. 
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Post by funky44 on Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:38 pm

Yet history has shown us several times that communism doesn't work. If everybody is equal and does what is best for the group there would be no leaders (necessary).

Tho in this game it is different, I don't think it is hard to give up power here as it is not real power. Can a President here kill of those he does not like?
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Post by Dishmcds on Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:47 pm

Actually funky, Yes he can. There are ways to starve people out that have been tried in various places. That would either force you to move or starve.

And KIA, we're arguing in circles (and I never said I was the only one, but as you said I have helped it along which is what I said I did. Even IP says that no one said anything about Open Commons until I did).

I dont believe Communism can or will exist, and you seem to think otherwise.
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Post by Ip Lockard on Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:53 pm

Dishmcds wrote:
I dont believe Communism can or will exist, and you seem to think otherwise.
IRL - I agree with you here, survival instincts are too high, and society will never change enough.
On here, it still could be possible, but it would probably be too hard for 'True Communism' to ever exist.

Note that IRL in a perfect society, the perfect Government doesn't exist, as there's no need for it.
People will always want more choice in their lives, but it's for somone to decide whether to:

Restrict things for the good of the country.

Or 
Let the problems 'sort themselves' out, and leave people their freedoms.

Which is a line I dont think anyone can be totally to one side of.
For example IRL I'm a liberal leaning moderate (Euro definition), with an emphasis on civil rights.
But I still support the Death Penalty in select cases, and Punishment > Rehabilitation for a large number. I still think that restrictions are necessary on a large number of things because at the end of the day, no one person makes the right choice all the time.
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Post by funky44 on Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:57 pm

Ah but that still makes it possible for people to live and getting invites means getting gold means getting food.
I mean giving the order to make someone die.

Everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion, I as well don't believe that communism can't exist. Not in real life in on eRep, with V1 I challenge those who deem themselves communists survive like it was meant. Just as a test, no more no less.

Edit: small change
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Post by Ip Lockard on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:06 pm

funky44 wrote:I challenge those who deem themselves communists survive like it was meant. Just as a test, no more no less.
I'm sure that would be possible if the rest of the country wasn't capitalist.
It's impossible without some kind of government control, which isn't wanted, and so isn't implemented.
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Post by KIA Sneak on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:11 pm

past mistakes don't matter when the idea have never properly been realised. I entered this discussion by saying peoples attitudes would need to change before it becomes a reality. 



i'm starting to see what dish meant by circles. 



What does it matter if its failed in the past when my point was that it won't work unless people change. 

As that I ask is that people don’t knock the theory just because it can’t all happen at once. Especially when the only reason it couldn’t happen is because people are flawed not because the theory is bad. 

“I dont believe Communism can or will exist, and you seem to think otherwise.”

I would like to think this is because of lack of imagination. My solution is very far fetched and I’m not holding any hope of it happening but it was merely a way of offering a solution to the people who say it can’t happen. 

The only point I have failed to prove is the fact that people can change and follow different systems and I think I’ve provided enough examples to convince anyone with an open mind that it could happen. 

I’ll leave you with one last example. A bodyguard is meant to die to protect his employer. You could put this down to money but those who protect say the president may do so because they believe in his message. 

If they are willing to die for someone to live why couldn’t someone die for many to live? 

Anyway this isn’t me try to have the last word but I think I’ll give up now as you haven’t found any fresh points on my posts and my argument to your points are the same as they where before. 
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Post by funky44 on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:13 pm

Ip Lockard wrote:
funky44 wrote:I challenge those who deem themselves communists survive like it was meant. Just as a test, no more no less.
I'm sure that would be possible if the rest of the country wasn't capitalist.
It's impossible without some kind of government control, which isn't wanted, and so isn't implemented.

Ah yes, but V1 brings the transferability of goods, make your employees work for free and give them their food. This should be possible as the PCP owns several companies, bring everybody in your party in one of these companies and see what happens.

I mean, in theory it would work as all one needs to survive is food.
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Post by KIA Sneak on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:14 pm

funky44 wrote: 

Everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion, I as well don't believe that communism can't exist. Not in real life in on eRep, with V1 I challenge those who deem themselves communists survive like it was meant. Just as a test, no more no less.


Edit: small change



there is a communist group that tried to recruit us at one point. They aim to make a communist country that would be a utopia for commies. The plan would not work though as they have different ideas of communism then us and the capitalist world is unlikely to leave us alone (WAR). 
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Post by funky44 on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:16 pm

KIA Sneak wrote:
funky44 wrote:

Everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion, I as well don't believe that communism can't exist. Not in real life in on eRep, with V1 I challenge those who deem themselves communists survive like it was meant. Just as a test, no more no less.


Edit: small change



there is a communist group that tried to recruit us at one point. They aim to make a communist country that would be a utopia for commies. The plan would not work though as they have different ideas of communism then us and the capitalist world is unlikely to leave us alone (WAR).

But the PCP as a party can try this, it should not be forced upon every citizen. As an experiment say?
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Post by KIA Sneak on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:33 pm

funky44 wrote:

But the PCP as a party can try this, it should not be forced upon every citizen. As an experiment say?
But we are not proposing communism here. My party's views on this are different then mine and most of my party are more socialist then communist. 



What we do in the UK is to help the UK not to realise our own ideals. 
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Post by funky44 on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:41 pm

KIA Sneak wrote:... But we are not proposing communism here. My party's views on this are different then mine and most of my party are more socialist then communist.

What we do in the UK is to help the UK not to realise our own ideals.

I smell a name change! PSP Wink Doing the best for the UK is what everybody politician should do. As soon as one is elected the good of the people goes before the party. It are the points of the party and the activeness of a candidate that should get people elected. It should be clear that dialogue is very important in politics. (Hey, I think I'm rambling! Wink )
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Post by KIA Sneak on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:44 pm

funky44 wrote:
KIA Sneak wrote:... But we are not proposing communism here. My party's views on this are different then mine and most of my party are more socialist then communist. 

What we do in the UK is to help the UK not to realise our own ideals.


I smell a name change! PSP Doing the best for the UK is what everybody politician should do. As soon as one is elected the good of the people goes before the party. It are the points of the party and the activeness of a candidate that should get people elected. It should be clear that dialogue is very important in politics. (Hey, I think I'm rambling! )



lol i could show you an 11 page thread which is about the party discussing its name but it doesn't really matter. We are the PCP. socialism is a dirty word and as there are some which refuse to accept a name change there is no reason to change. 

We win votes because of what we stand for not the fact the people like our name or because we have a union jack as our party logo. 

When was the last time UKRP reformed anything? and TUP is just confusing. 
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Post by funky44 on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:46 pm

KIA Sneak wrote:
funky44 wrote:
KIA Sneak wrote:... But we are not proposing communism here. My party's views on this are different then mine and most of my party are more socialist then communist.

What we do in the UK is to help the UK not to realise our own ideals.


I smell a name change! PSP Doing the best for the UK is what everybody politician should do. As soon as one is elected the good of the people goes before the party. It are the points of the party and the activeness of a candidate that should get people elected. It should be clear that dialogue is very important in politics. (Hey, I think I'm rambling! )



lol i could show you an 11 page thread which is about the party discussing its name but it doesn't really matter. We are the PCP. socialism is a dirty word and as there are some which refuse to accept a name change there is no reason to change.

We win votes because of what we stand for not the fact the people like our name or because we have a union jack as our party logo.

When was the last time UKRP reformed anything? and TUP is just confusing.

Honestly, we are reforming right now! Very Happy
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Post by shadow on Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:11 pm

god, I'm so happy to finally have these discussions again. I missed them so. You're making my day kia.
Unfortunately it's already 00.03 hours here in belgium and need to get up tomorrow at 8.00 so I'll answer further tomorrow. I just want to point out on this:

"When was the last time UKRP reformed anything? "

We laid the basics for this country, we brought order in this country when there was chaos. We made this country form the tiny shithole to a e-rep superpower. From all the changes that this country has gone trough, we have brought up the biggest and most important. Yes, PCP has brought up unions, but from the looks of it, they aren't really working.

We may not have done much great achievements lately, but the greatest of all in this country have all been done by UKRP. It was us who created the forum, it was us who created and organized the military, it was us who negotiated with SWE and NOR that later resulted in the NA, it was us who merged belgium with the UK,... Those things can't even be compared with stuff like unions or anything.

I agree that we have been a little bid quite lately, but if you would put up all our achievements against all those of PCP, we are ahead of you guys by mliles.
shadow
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