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Post by Mephit on Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:03 pm

widdows9000 wrote:I think Russia were right to go in. But they were not in the right to bomb civilian apartment blocks outside of the conflict zone. That is wanton aggression and did nothing for the conflict apart from exacerbate it and increase the rhetoric on both sides.
Russia was allegedly aiming for a nearby military base (its not like any one nation has a monopoly on collateral damage - its not like any other country involved in a war recently hasn't hit something it wasn't intending to).
widdows9000 wrote:I'm aware Russia almost has a monopoly on oil (surprisingly Georgia is
the only other country with major oil pipelines in it, I wonder why
Russian went in...) but Russia aren't totally self sufficient and rely
on Europe for some things, if we stopped them getting those commodities
and made it clear that sanctions would escalate if they then forced oil
prices high then they might back down for a change. Admittedly the
operative word there is might.

Something has to be done about Russia though, they are a powerful
country with no morals and a lust for territory and, by the looks of
this conflict, oil. I'm not a powerful world diplomat so I don't know
how that could happen but I know it should. I know them losing their G8
place is on the cards but I doubt that would hurt them that much.
Gazprom (the largest Russian company and gas supplier) is a pretty big player, given it supplies several EU nations as the sole supplier of natural glass and several others it is the market leader (bear in mind it provides 25% of the EU's gas total - that is one company). Now take into account that the Russian government has several board members in the countries ministry and a controlling number of shares. If we decide to not play nice economically, well, quite a few countries in the EU could suddenly have no natural gas aside from anything they've got stockpiled. You've already mentioned what'll happen in the oil market, so no need for me to go into that.

By GDP, Russia isn't actually in the top 10 economic powers of the world and thus some argue it shouldn't be in the G8. On the other hand, China isn't in there either (and lets face it, if China throws it's toys out the pram it wouldn't be pretty either) and Brazil doesn't seem to be in a rush to become as large on the world stage as Russia is (unless we count football Wink). But that is neither here or there - kicking Russia out of it would be a ridiculously childish gesture that wouldn't truly accomplish much.

As Satya said, the West is gonna have to suck it up while decrying it loudly (though no doubt various intelligence agencies are loving it). Just like none-NATO nations have to cope when the US decides what international incident it is going to interfere in or start.
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Post by Squiddy on Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:21 pm

I agree, I really don't think there is much we can do, let's just prey that Russia isn't using this as testing grounds to get us to force our cards, sitting back and allowing them to do this will only massage their ego's, so let's hope that they don't get any other ideas about blitzing other countries.
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Post by widdows9000 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:28 pm

Squiddy wrote:I agree, I really don't think there is much we can do, let's just prey that Russia isn't using this as testing grounds to get us to force our cards, sitting back and allowing them to do this will only massage their ego's, so let's hope that they don't get any other ideas about blitzing other countries.

Oh they'll go after another ex Soviet country sooner or later. I'd bet my house on it, look at it to be Ukraine, Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan. Some have oil and some are just weak countries, that because they're ex Soviet, are in the Russians' eyes rightly their's which is complete bull. Russia needs to realise we're in the 21st century.
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Post by Satya on Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:30 pm

widdows9000 wrote:Oh they'll go after another ex Soviet country sooner or later. I'd bet my house on it, look at it to be Ukraine, Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan. Some have oil and some are just weak countries, that because they're ex Soviet, are in the Russians' eyes rightly their's which is complete bull. Russia needs to realise we're in the 21st century.

Russia's actions in Georgia are much like what happened with Hungary decades ago. Perhaps we need to realize that 20th-century Russian tactics are still incredibly potent in the 21st century...
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Post by widdows9000 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:33 pm

Not to mention Czechoslovakia as well as Poland, the Russians always seem to be protecting innocent minority citizens...
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Post by Flamur on Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:41 pm

Do not bring Kosova into this. That situation was very different. We were being slaughtered (civilians) for quite a long time, with little to no international aid (in terms of food, water, etc.) and no country to even consider helping us or sanctioning Serbia. It truely was ethnic cleansing, and you could see it in physical form.

I havn't got much time, but USA can either do little or a lot, and they have to make a choice. What is more important (to them), Irans nuclear "weapons" or the Georgian people. The USA needs Russia to help pressure Iran. Personally, I think it's a shit choice and that the Georgian people should be put first.

And yep, both sides are accusing eachother of ethnic cleansing yet there is no solid proof in substantial amounts to prove it. However, there IS proof in, what I would call, substantial ammounts, to show that Russia have been targetting civilians. It's easy to target civilian buildings and people, and it's pathetic.

And to whoever said they wouldn't be happy paying a huge amount of money for gas because Russia halted supply...I would MUCH rather pay a much higher price for my gas bill if that meant that the thousands of Georgians in Georgia, as well as the Russians in South Ossetia, could be saved.
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Post by widdows9000 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:18 pm

Basically Flam has just put all my points in to a much better argument and one I totally agree with.
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Post by Mephit on Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:38 pm

Flamur wrote:I havn't got much time, but USA can either do little or a lot, and they have to make a choice. What is more important (to them), Irans nuclear "weapons" or the Georgian people. The USA needs Russia to help pressure Iran. Personally, I think it's a shit choice and that the Georgian people should be put first.
I'm pretty sure Israel and the US foreign policy since the creation of Israel might disagree, given the Iranian president has outright said it should be "wiped off the map". While the suffering of the people in Ossetia is of course abhorrent, I think it somewhat pales to what could happen if Iran gets hold of nukes.
Flamur wrote:And yep, both sides are accusing eachother of ethnic cleansing yet there is no solid proof in substantial amounts to prove it. However, there IS proof in, what I would call, substantial ammounts, to show that Russia have been targetting civilians. It's easy to target civilian buildings and people, and it's pathetic.
Yes, it is. Good job the artillery shelling Tshknivali before the rest of the Georgian army moved in are such crack shots with their howitzers and rockets eh?
Flamur wrote:And to whoever said they wouldn't be happy paying a huge amount of money for gas because Russia halted supply...I would MUCH rather pay a much higher price for my gas bill if that meant that the thousands of
Georgians in Georgia, as well as the Russians in South Ossetia, could be saved.
You might, but I doubt any politician out there is going to be the one that goes down for potentially destroying the economies of Europe for doing what is arguably the right thing to do.

Of course, as the media around the conflict intensifies the waters are likely gonna just get muddied further. The first casualty of war is always the truth.
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Post by Squiddy on Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:16 pm

"Personally, I think it's a shit choice and that the Georgian people should be put first."

Maybe a certain Government should have considered that before shelling the crap out of a certain city. What did they expect to happen, for Russia to just roll over and allow a much weaker country to bully it? Rolling Eyes
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Post by TheTruePredator on Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:20 pm

I'm with Squiddy Russia did the right thing protecting the people of south Ossetia
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Post by Squiddy on Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:26 pm

Mhmm, I'm not agreeing Russia did the right thing. It must suck for the people, it truly must, because they've done absolutely nothing to deserve the death and chaos that's been launched towards them.

Russia has clearly over reacted here, like a playground bully after being accidentally walked into by a weaker kid, (although in this instance the weaker kid did it on purpose).

I just don't see how Russia can cause so much despair in the name of, "protection". It really does make a mockery of stupidity, as does Georgia's initial actions.
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Post by TheTruePredator on Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:49 am

I meant not right principle although they seem a bit heavy handed in their actions. Georgia look rather suspicious with their massive increase in military spending over the past ten years
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Post by Biblin on Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:02 am

Russia was right. Georgia was right. Certain people need to learn what grey is. I'd say Georgia was in the right to try and stop seperatists in their country and wrong in their disregard for who got injured in the attempt and Russia probably used the pretence of being right in protecting their citizens to actually be wrong and shiv Georgia up a bit since they don't like them very much.

In other words arguing that A is right, B is wrong is a bit naive.


Last edited by Biblin on Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:58 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Ossetia = Georgia numpty)
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Post by Squiddy on Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:47 pm

Indeed, as I said before, I blame them both.
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Post by Biblin on Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:41 am

I am saddened by the cessation of drama in this thread and retract my previous statement.

It's all Georgia's fault, Widdows knows nothing and the Serbians were right.

Continue!
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Post by twaters on Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:44 pm

I personally have a deep-seated mistrust of the Russian government, given their recent tendency to (ex?)KGB government, and that they've been deliberately provoking Georgia by providing passports (probably also arms and training) to South Ossetians, and trying to stir up this conflict. When tensions broke, and separatist violence flared up, Georgia didn't really have an option but to intervene. No doubts they made mistakes (whether deliberately or not), but i truly believe that Russia engineered this as an excuse.
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Post by widdows9000 on Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:47 pm

Not to mention that for every day of the week prior to the conflict the Russians had been carrying out training exercises right near the border to try and provoke Georgia in to action. They're at fault here although Georgia aren't blameless.

Lol @ Biblin.
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Post by William of Orange on Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:16 pm

Flamur wrote:It truely was ethnic cleansing, and you could see it in physical form.
The Serbs obviously aren't as good at ethnic cleansing as everyone gives them credit for? Considering that the Serbian and Christian populations have decreased in Kosovo, and the Albanian and Muslim proportion has increased: Serbia must be pretty poor at it (were they cleansing their own people by accident or something?)
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Post by Squiddy on Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:22 pm

I read on the BBC website that Russia had been shelling Georgian locations and using many other provoactive tactics for many months before now, so I would like to change my opinion, because it's clear now that Georgia acted out of necessity instead of how it is being perceived by some that they acted without reason or cause.

"Russian troops were stationed in Tskhinvali and from their base in the
city have provoked the Georgian side [over a long period]. I work in
Gori and there was hardly a day when there wasn't any shelling -
virtually every day we had wounded delivered to our hospital - there
was no end to Russia's provocation, all year round. So Georgia had no
choice but to defend itself."" - Dr. Gorgadz

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7561801.stm
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Post by Katie on Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:05 pm

Squiddy wrote:I read on the BBC website that Russia had been shelling Georgian locations and using many other provoactive tactics for many months before now, so I would like to change my opinion, because it's clear now that Georgia acted out of necessity instead of how it is being perceived by some that they acted without reason or cause.

"Russian troops were stationed in Tskhinvali and from their base in the
city have provoked the Georgian side [over a long period]. I work in
Gori and there was hardly a day when there wasn't any shelling -
virtually every day we had wounded delivered to our hospital - there
was no end to Russia's provocation, all year round. So Georgia had no
choice but to defend itself."" - Dr. Gorgadz

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7561801.stm

Now, think about this, months ago when the Russians were at the presidental elections, many said that they are taking a step back in democracy and turning into a dictatorship. I think that the Russians are sliding back into their old ways and they probably won't stop at Georgia. What makes this unfortunate is, what people have said above, is the natural resources. Do you think they are going to become a dictatorship again?

However, I see that for the future that Russia is going to be in the world news for awhile. And what makes this frustrating is that George W isn't' doing a damned thing. Why? Because everyone is in the middle east. If the idiot hadn't started the stupid war there, the US could actually be helping, but it doesn't help that we have a Monkey in the office trying to make decisions now does it?

In my opinon, it's too preemptive to make a move. There seems to be too much at stake right now.
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Post by Squiddy on Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:25 am

Katie wrote:Now, think about this, months ago when the Russians were at the presidental elections, many said that they are taking a step back in democracy and turning into a dictatorship. I think that the Russians are sliding back into their old ways and they probably won't stop at Georgia. What makes this unfortunate is, what people have said above, is the natural resources. Do you think they are going to become a dictatorship again?

However, I see that for the future that Russia is going to be in the world news for awhile. And what makes this frustrating is that George W isn't' doing a damned thing. Why? Because everyone is in the middle east. If the idiot hadn't started the stupid war there, the US could actually be helping, but it doesn't help that we have a Monkey in the office trying to make decisions now does it?

In my opinon, it's too preemptive to make a move. There seems to be too much at stake right now.

I think Russia will definitely be going back to its old dictatorship ways, simply because democracy represents a HUGE obstacle for anyone that wants to gain a lot of power. Everything has to be done for the greater good, i.e. Iraq, even if it's painfully obvious that that's not the main reason they are there, i.e. Oil, but fair play to us, the UK for rebuilding so much of their destroyed industry and infrastrucutre, USA did too, but a lot their money went to private companies which simply took the money and ran or did as little as possible. We probably did the same though, but I haven't heard any coverage on that.

Anyway, back to the main point.. I honestly don't think Russia will stop here, as you say, because why would they? The "peace keepers" of the world are all tied up in the middle east, who's left to stop them taking over a few isolationist countries? China? Yeah, I can't see that happening any time soon.

It's annoying, because, while the US and UK spend all their resources on military muscle and trying to show it off, everyone else is just sitting back, stockpiling weapons, amassing vehicles etc without taking on any responsibilites in the world. Think how much easier it would be if Russia and China helped with Iraq/Afghan. It probably would've been over years ago.
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Post by William of Orange on Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:43 am

I can't help but think it's all a bit naive talking about the Russians being the "baddies" here: the Western democracies have been invading sovereign countries for a few years now, carving up Serbia (much to the annoyance of Russia) and have been propping up some very undemocratic anti-human rights regimes for decades.

Why shouldn't Russia have a piece of the action?
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Post by Squiddy on Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:00 am

Just because we do what we do, doesn't make Russia any less of a "baddy", so I think naive is the wrong word to use there.

Double standards, sure, it's all fucked up anyway. All countries are hypocrites, it's just whether or not someone else has found it out yet.
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Post by Bob Boblo on Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:22 am

With America setting up on the borders, its turning into the Cuban nuclear crisis in reverse.
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Post by Mephit on Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:00 pm

Squiddy wrote:Think how much easier it would be if Russia and China helped with Iraq/Afghan. It probably would've been over years ago.
Last time the Russians went to Afghanistan, it didn't turn out too well for them.
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