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Post by Bob Boblo on Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:24 am

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Post by Flamur on Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:40 am

Yep. I'm hoping the UN do something.
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Post by Kumnaa on Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:41 am

If only they could buy my eguns Crying or Very sad
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Post by Macbeth on Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:41 am

I think they need eTanks and eFighters more. Salute 1
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Post by widdows9000 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:02 am

Bloody Russians, ah well at least they've stopped now. Pity the Americans and us have commitments elsewhere. Also, it's a pity the UN are such a bunch of pussies who dare not upset them. It really complicates things when the Russians have a permanent seat on the council which means they have veto rights.
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Post by Satya on Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:23 pm

widdows9000 wrote:Bloody Russians, ah well at least they've stopped now. Pity the Americans and us have commitments elsewhere. Also, it's a pity the UN are such a bunch of pussies who dare not upset them. It really complicates things when the Russians have a permanent seat on the council which means they have veto rights.

What could the UN do, even if they weren't "pussies"? they have no real power when it comes to military intervention.

Besides, the 2,000 casualties thus far are - while despicable - much less damaging than the possibilities if America had intervened.
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Post by widdows9000 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:25 pm

Satya wrote:What could the UN do, even if they weren't "pussies"? they have no real power when it comes to military intervention.

Besides, the 2,000 casualties thus far are - while despicable - much less damaging than the possibilities if America had intervened.

The above should be changed, they need to have a proper peacekeeping force for situations like this.

If America had intervened the Russians would have left I think. It's no coincidence that Russia have stopped military actions just after Bush had a go at them.
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Post by TheTruePredator on Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:11 pm

After reading various articles I think Georgia are in the wrong here they invaded South Ossetia and Russia retaliated yet they are labelled as the 'bad guys' in a lot of the media
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Post by widdows9000 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:37 am

Georgia has a right to try and defeat armed separatists in their own region do they not? If a group in Liverpool suddenly armed themselves, declared themselves independent and threatened the government do you think our military would do nothing?

Russia invaded to show that it's the big boy in the Caucasus. Now Ukraine, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan must be bricking it as thanks to the cowards in the UN Russia knows it can do what it wants and get away with it. The UN is weak as is NATO and the EU.
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Post by StanWephen on Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:52 am

TheTruePredator wrote:After reading various articles I think Georgia are in the wrong here they invaded South Ossetia and Russia retaliated yet they are labelled as the 'bad guys' in a lot of the media

I think you're right TheTruePredator. To take your example Widdows, if the population of Liverpool did decide to take up arms, and then the Biritsh government responded by ethinically cleansing Liverpool, then I sure as hell hope another big country intervenes before more innocent lives are lost. Georgia deserved what it got. Did they really think that when they started killing Russian citizens Russia wouldn't intervene?
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Post by tim09 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:05 am

Also what do you expect the UN to do while Russia has the right of veto?
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Post by Mephit on Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:24 am

Not much. On the other hand, the lovely double standards of Western democracies are evident in the parallels between this situation and that of Kosovo.

Plus, I bet we won't see any Georgians hauled up for war crimes on bombing civilian targets during ceasefires.
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Post by Biblin on Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:56 am

StanWephen wrote:if the population of Liverpool did decide to take up arms, and then the Biritsh government responded by ethinically cleansing Liverpool, then I sure as hell hope another big country intervenes before more innocent lives are lost.

On the other hand you'd expect the government to send in the army and shoot whoever is waving a gun around in public. If Georgia had done that I'd be on their side. Ethnic cleansing is right out though and they've turned themselves into the bad guys by doing it.
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Post by widdows9000 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:04 am

What the hell. The only reports of ethnic cleansing come from the Russians, who lets face it, aren't the best of friends with Georgia and will do anything to destabilise Saakaahvili's government as they are a US ally. The Georgians have also said the Russians are ethnic cleansing but nobody believes them do they?

Oh and Stan the Georgians never bombed civilian targets during a ceasefire. That was the Russians, they hit hospitals and civilian apartment blocks when Georgia called a ceasefire and pulled back due to humanitarian reasons.

Mephit, the situation in Kosovo was far worse than it was in Georgia, the Russians just made the situation worse.

Tim, what about Nato? The EU? The G8? All groups Russia belong to, all groups that could expel Russia or threaten them yet all they did was call Russia's response 'disproportionate'. Now that is hard hitting diplomacy (not).

Oh and Stan, 'Georgia got what they deserved' is a ridiculous statement. Russia didn't just go after military bases or targets in South Ossetia. No, they bombed civilian housing and hospitals miles outside of the conflict zone. I would hardly say that wasn't aggressive.
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Post by Squiddy on Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:14 am

And Russia wonder why so many people suspect them of not having changed much since the cold war when they do things like this...?
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Post by Mephit on Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:07 am

widdows9000 wrote:Tim, what about Nato? The EU? The G8? All groups Russia belong to, all groups that could expel Russia or threaten them yet all they did was call Russia's response 'disproportionate'. Now that is hard hitting diplomacy (not).
Russia is neither part of NATO or the European Union, so try again.

Given Georgia is not a part of NATO either (and, though it is trying to join, the Ossetian dispute was a reason given by France and Germany that they should not be allowed to join), NATO would be on tricky ground to interfere. And as we all know, Russia and NATO have a long history of not exactly seeing eye-to-eye Sad

The EU involvement has been evident via the French president's brokering of a peace deal (as he is currently also EU president) and I somehow suspect deploying any of the EU's military to Georgia is not going to happen.

Given this all kicked off after the G8 summit, odds are unless it keeps on going for a while, it'll get buried beneath larger issues.

I'm not going to say Russia is being whiter than white in this, but I don't think Georgia can hold its head high and say it is being a paragon of virtue either.
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Post by widdows9000 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:55 am

Mephit wrote:
widdows9000 wrote:Tim, what about Nato? The EU? The G8? All groups Russia belong to, all groups that could expel Russia or threaten them yet all they did was call Russia's response 'disproportionate'. Now that is hard hitting diplomacy (not).

Russia is neither part of NATO or the European Union, so try again.

I'm aware of that thank you, but then again Zimbabwe isn't part of the EU yet they did something about that. Even just sanctions against Russia would show that their behaviour will not be tolerated.
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Post by Mephit on Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:12 am

Good luck with that thought - hope you don't mind gas prices throughout Europe spiralling up even more than they already are under the current economic conditions.

Slapping sanctions on Zimbabwe is a no-risk policy for Western Europe. Slapping them on Russia is a "not gonna happen" event.
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Post by widdows9000 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:18 am

Mephit wrote:Good luck with that thought - hope you don't mind gas prices throughout Europe spiralling up even more than they already are under the current economic conditions.

Slapping sanctions on Zimbabwe is a no-risk policy for Western Europe. Slapping them on Russia is a "not gonna happen" event.

I'm aware Russia almost has a monopoly on oil (surprisingly Georgia is the only other country with major oil pipelines in it, I wonder why Russian went in...) but Russia aren't totally self sufficient and rely on Europe for some things, if we stopped them getting those commodities and made it clear that sanctions would escalate if they then forced oil prices high then they might back down for a change. Admittedly the operative word there is might.

Something has to be done about Russia though, they are a powerful country with no morals and a lust for territory and, by the looks of this conflict, oil. I'm not a powerful world diplomat so I don't know how that could happen but I know it should. I know them losing their G8 place is on the cards but I doubt that would hurt them that much.
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Post by Ip Lockard on Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:24 am

[quote="widdows9000"]
Mephit wrote:
Something has to be done about The USA though, they are a powerful country with no morals and a lust for installing 'democracy' and, by the looks of this conflict, oil. I'm not a powerful world diplomat so I don't know how that could happen but I know it should. I know them losing their president to impeachment is on the cards but I doubt that would hurt them that much.

I could say this ^^.

I don't think Russia acted innaporopriately, at the end of the day, their citizens where being killed by the Georgians, what are they expected to do?
The peace talks have followed, and hopefully they'll be successful within a couple of days.
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Post by widdows9000 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:28 am

[quote="Ip Lockard"]
widdows9000 wrote:
Mephit wrote:
Something has to be done about The USA though, they are a powerful country with no morals and a lust for installing 'democracy' and, by the looks of this conflict, oil. I'm not a powerful world diplomat so I don't know how that could happen but I know it should. I know them losing their president to impeachment is on the cards but I doubt that would hurt them that much.

I could say this ^^.

I don't think Russia acted innaporopriately, at the end of the day, their citizens where being killed by the Georgians, what are they expected to do?
The peace talks have followed, and hopefully they'll be successful within a couple of days.

I think Russia were right to go in. But they were not in the right to bomb civilian apartment blocks outside of the conflict zone. That is wanton aggression and did nothing for the conflict apart from exacerbate it and increase the rhetoric on both sides.

Ip, I agree with the above about the USA but I don't think there should be anything done about them, they haven't done anything wrong recently lol.
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Post by TheTruePredator on Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:00 pm

I don't think the Russians are too pleased with the Americans transporting Georgian forces home.
To be honest neither side has been very honest it's a propaganda war on one front. Widdows you say Russians have attacked civilian structures but so have Georgians they are both playing dirty by the looks of things.
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Post by Satya on Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:47 pm

widdows9000 wrote:I'm aware Russia almost has a monopoly on oil (surprisingly Georgia is the only other country with major oil pipelines in it, I wonder why Russian went in...) but Russia aren't totally self sufficient and rely on Europe for some things, if we stopped them getting those commodities and made it clear that sanctions would escalate if they then forced oil prices high then they might back down for a change. Admittedly the operative word there is might.

You're forgetting the past decade of Russian history. NOTHING has been more important than their sovereignty. Upwards of 15 million Russians died during WW2 to protect that sovereignty. They fought the Cold War for decades. Cutting out commodities won't change the historical attitude of an entire nation.

Thomas Friedman once said that no two countries with a McDonald's franchise in it would ever go to war. Yes, the Bosnian War and this current conflict show that he wasn't entirely correct, but it still has some truth to it. Russia is such an intrinsic part of our global economy, the EU wouldn't be willing to go to war over Georgia. The domestic economic backlash would be far too costly.
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Post by Squiddy on Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:31 pm

widdows9000 wrote:I'm aware Russia almost has a monopoly on oil (surprisingly Georgia is the only other country with major oil pipelines in it, I wonder why Russian went in...) but Russia aren't totally self sufficient and rely on Europe for some things, if we stopped them getting those commodities and made it clear that sanctions would escalate if they then forced oil prices high then they might back down for a change. Admittedly the operative word there is might.

Something has to be done about Russia though, they are a powerful country with no morals and a lust for territory and, by the looks of this conflict, oil. I'm not a powerful world diplomat so I don't know how that could happen but I know it should. I know them losing their G8 place is on the cards but I doubt that would hurt them that much.

I don't think screwing ourselves over is really going to teach them a lesson.

It would be like when a child gets into a tantrum and leaves the room kicking and screaming, only to come back 5 minutes later realising that they forgot something they needed.. in this situation that something would be oil.

I can only imagine what petrol prices would be like a few weeks from now if we put trade sanctions on Russia.

Unfortunately there is practically nothing we can do, other than stand on a podium and throw mildly critical speaches their way. We could slap a dunce hat on them too, but I doubt politicians would want to go that far.
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Post by Satya on Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:44 pm

Squiddy wrote:We could slap a dunce hat on them too, but I doubt politicians would want to go that far.

Don't give politicians too much credit...
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