Glastonbury '08/Nelson Mandela...

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Post by tim09 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:40 am

personal attacks sir william, not very tasteful at all. i was merely comparing ideals.

the fight for freedom module will not be the same as a military campaign i do not think.
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Post by William of Orange on Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:47 am

Bob Boblo wrote:And Mandela is quoted as saying the bombs were intended be set off in way that didn't harm anyone
Lots of senior nazis can be quoted as saying they knew nothing about the Holocaust; Iraqi Information Minister Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf is quoted, in fact recorded, stating there were no Coalition troops anywhere near Baghdad, as American M1 Abrams main battle tanks rolled across the screen behind him.
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Post by Bob Boblo on Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:57 am

Yes but unlike them, I choose to belieive Mandela, because like Sam said, in the years after the guerilla activities he showed himself to be a great man.

Obviously, for whatever reason, you choose not to.

This debate is getting pretty pointless tbh, becuase we're both pretty staunch about our views, and it might end up as an irrelevent argument so I won't say anything more on this matter.

You make for some lively debates, William. Good luck in your quest reviving TRP because we lack an active right wing party. The diversity should be good for the country.
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Post by William of Orange on Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:03 am

Bob Boblo wrote:This debate is getting pretty pointless tbh, becuase we're both pretty staunch about our views, and it might end up as an irrelevent argument so I won't say anything more on this matter.
Agreed.

You make for some lively debates, William. Good luck in your quest reviving TRP because we lack an active right wing party. The diversity should be good for the country.
Thank you.
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Post by NotABrick on Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:09 am

At the very least waking up midway through the afternoon to read these topics is entertaining in itself.

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Post by 03samg on Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:59 am

Pretty pointless agrument. I think we all know that Mandela is a true legend and human hero deep inside.

I cant even believe that some are debating this FACT!! Sad Anyway, I do respect you, william, however, I certainly am failing to even comprehend the notion that you are sending! (respect you essentially but not those ideas! Very Happy )


Last edited by 03samg on Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:01 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : gramatical error, first sentance!)
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Post by William of Orange on Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:02 am

Sam, did you follow the link to Terrorist Watch?
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Post by 03samg on Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:18 am

Like I have stated time and time again, you must consider all sources, and I am sure you cannot disagree with this fact, that after his release from prison, 27 years, he switched his policy to reconciliation and negotiation. If you actually study him, he renounces violence and he is one of the greatest leaders for today due to this later use of non violence!

He has won the Nobel Peace prize, because, yes, of the word peace! He was attacked by most of the members of teh ANC for negotiating with the racist SA government. He took a stand to create equality. He has been praised by old "enemies" such as teh old president Boltha (soz if spelling is wrong! Razz)

With claims of violating human rights, yes he did. Infact, he was the one who openly said it not with pride but with honesty as he too is only human! He used it only as the last resort, with years and years, of absolute lack of change.

He is idol of hope and reconciliation and peace not to SA but to all in the world regarless of faith, gender, political affiliation or race.

Hope you can look at the broder picture rather than magnifying the frailties all of us, human do possess. THe frailties he so openly discusses with honestly in truth and the driving leadership that led to negotiations with the governement even against fierce dissaproval from teh ANC!

(Soz for my long rant, but its nothing personal mate, its just that I can't actually believe that someone is questioning the integrity of Nelson Mandela and his ever lasting becon of hope, peace, and forgivness.)
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Post by 03samg on Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:19 am

OH, and sorry if there are any poor gramatical sentances and spelling mistakes as it was written in haste as this this post!
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Post by William of Orange on Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:25 am

I can't believe the way you admit he was a terrorist and human rights abuser, then just try to smooth over it!

I will never respect, let alone admire, anyone who resorts to terrorist tactics. The ANC have ruined South Africa. Prosperity is more important than votes: that's one of the reasons why a good fifty percent of Britons don't bother to vote.
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Post by 03samg on Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:36 am

Are you serious! Shocked I am seriously dumbfounded. Wow. " The ANC have runied South Africa". Wow, wow, wow. I dont think i even need to respond to it.

Hope you dont think the racist aparthied promoted and legally racial institution and adminstration which was the government at that time have some how done better.

Is it just me, or I am right to be completly shocked?!

I certainly hope your not a BNP sympathiser or an individual who doesnt believe the holocast occured - again nothing personal.

Also, "Prosperity is more important than votes". I actually dont get that. Correct me if im wrong but thats like comparing the price of bus travel with the quality of the train. For me, that statment doesnt equivecate to anything. Why people dont vote, is another issue which i dont even want to go near. But, seriously, exclude this paragraph of my post, but Im still a bit shocked!
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Post by William of Orange on Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:45 am

Yes, the former regime were doing better! Everyone was better off, including the blacks: they just couldn't vote in Union of South Africa elections (they had their own native nations in which they were citizens). The simple fact is that it was a more prosperous time.

And no, I'm not a BNP supporter, and I have already made reference to the Holocaust in another post, so I'm not a Holocaust denier.

Which affects the quality of your life more: voting once every four to five years, or eating three times a day?
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Post by 03samg on Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:53 am

:shock:The old regime were better. Sad

Wow. Nothing to say. I would most certainly be suprised if people actually believed this. I certainly am losing faith in morality. Wow. Wow. Sad

Glad to hear your not a BNP supporter and so forth hence im slightly reassured!

Your comparision simply dont make sense. How is that a fair comparisson? You can use that kind of un-equating comparisions for anything!
Better to camaign for peace, or to eat three times a day?
Better to enjoy a free life, or eat three times a day?
Better to talk, or eat three times a day?
Better to have a free and fair representation in government or eat three times a day?

THey simply dont make sense! Please dont make absolute incompatable comparisions!! I have jsut given more examples of such absurd ones your rhetorical question equivecates!
You talk about human rights abuse :voting is a right!!!!

(sorry everyone if im going a bit OTT but im just completly shocked and ...........wow! I still cant believe the debate im having on an issue that is as close to a fact that you can get to! Cant stay silent and lose faith in morality!)
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Post by William of Orange on Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:57 am

You keep talking about morality: the sixth commandment is "Thou shalt not murder", and your "hero" Mandela broke it.

Come to think of it: you're all breaking the second commandment by treating Mandela like some kind of God.
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Post by 03samg on Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:57 am

And once again Brodie, sorry for hijaking your thread! Its a debate that I am too passionate about to miss as its an absurd and incomprehendable debate!
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Post by Flamur on Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:03 am

Sam, don't bother with him. The guy's a dumbass.
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Post by 03samg on Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:13 am

William of Orange wrote:You keep talking about morality: the sixth commandment is "Thou shalt not murder", and your "hero" Mandela broke it.

Come to think of it: you're all breaking the second commandment by treating Mandela like some kind of God.

Please read my posts! Now its just humourously funny as to the degree of debate! Its gone past lack of morality or faith in humanity.

As i have said, he had frailties and was no God (please READ before posting) and is only human but he is a symbol for us of what we can achive which is peace.

You appear to have been straying away from the actual arguments in couple of your last posts! Is tha beacuse of lack of substance to debate with?

Also, as again, if you have read, I am a pacifist and even i am able to last Mandela's violent past. Do you not understand that we think he is great because of his conduct AFTER AFTER AFTER (trying to make the point as all my posts dont seem to convey this) he was released!!!

We are human mate. I certainly hope that since your taking a morally perfect stance, you have never broken a commandment, are a pacifist (as suprisingly, believe it or not, wars do kill! ), against abortion, against euthanasia, and against capital punishment amongst many other things.

Going back to your old point which you have used as your staple argument, he broke the human rights. You are essentially advocating the breaking of the right to equlality which, yes, does include the right to vote.

You may have seen that I am not making any points aobut that man himself as Ithink its fair to say, that we have established that he is indeed a great man and a man who shows what we can achieve and a becon of hope. It appears that we accept this atleast, as your recent posts are slightly off the ball and looking into the small picture.

Again, I stress this. I wage this debate not because of personal distate or for personal gain or anything like that. I have followed up this debate but it is a issue that seems a non-existant issue and an issue that is a fact! I am/was shocked hence I have sought out to establish beyond all resonable doubt that this man wwas indeed an honourable man. I wanted to stand up against the distortion of the image. Sorry if I have come out as strong, but this is something I could not jsut stand around and watch.

I certainly hope that all do agree that he was a good man at the very very least.
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Post by 03samg on Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:18 am

Flamur, I'm actually beyond belief with this debate! I cant believe I'm having it but I'm trying to stand up against distortion and, nothing personaly mate, but absolutely stubborn and distasteful thinking.
I dont agree that William is a "dumbass" by the way and still respect him for a person but his notion - absolutely not!

@William. If in case you are continuing this debate because you believe it will some how lessen your image to other, then I urge you to consider the opposite option. Strong one is if one accepts - I would but this is ablsolutely a fact!
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Post by Flamur on Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:19 am

03samg wrote:Flamur, I'm actually beyond belief with this debate! I cant believe I'm having it but I'm trying to stand up against distortion and, nothing personaly mate, but absolutely stubborn and distasteful thinking.
I dont agree that William is a "dumbass" by the way and still respect him for a person but his notion - absolutely not!

He is a dumbass. Read past all the fancy words and you'll see he's talking like a retard.
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Post by 03samg on Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:22 am

Haa! His views are certainly out of touch. Dont want to go ahead with a person attack and distortion, as firstly Idont know him enough, and secondly follow his footsteps (As he has attempted to do with Mandela - character assassination)

Want to keep things above the belt even when those debating against me may not do the same- hope thats okay! Smile
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Post by Flamur on Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:23 am

03samg wrote:Haa! His views are certainly out of touch. Dont want to go ahead with a person attack and distortion, as firstly Idont know him enough, and secondly follow his footsteps (As he has attempted to do with Mandela - character assassination)

Want to keep things above the belt even when those debating against me may not do the same- hope thats okay! Smile

You don't need to attack him personally, you just need to ignore him and let him troll more till he eventually gets bored and pisses off.
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Post by 03samg on Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:25 am

Lol. Well, as long as he is playing the game, I for one will stand up to any distortion of facts he attempts to make and character assassinations. Very Happy I just couldnt let the comments be.
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Post by Flamur on Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:28 am

Why? He's trolling you on purpose.
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Post by 03samg on Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:33 am

That may indeed be true. Some one had to stand up I guess - someone has to be trolled Very Happy .
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Post by Flamur on Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:43 am

03samg wrote:That may indeed be true. Some one had to stand up I guess - someone has to be trolled Very Happy .

If no one stands up he'll dissapear Wink
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