Obama vs Clinton

Anyone interested in foreign politics (Probably none of you)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7436989.stm

Seems like she's finally given up. I thought she was carrying on just to try and secure a vice-presidential role, and it seems she may of done so.

oooo politics, American politics.... Clinton is finally giving up, but i am still not sure if Obama can win simply cause of stereotypes. the problem is there and it is probably the only thing that the Republicans have going for them, much as i hat to say it.

on the other hand this is a crap election to year cause Bush has stuffed everything, and the economy is going to be stuffed for the entire term anyway.

this sounds as a joke, but it's not. If Obama doesn't win this election, the US deserves it to be nuked. That Mc Cain is exact clone of G. Bush

I don't get American politics, although I know a lot more than what I did pre Obama/Clinton. To start with I was all for Clinton, being female you know lol, but then when I read more of bbc news I was for Obama... but then it got boring and dragged on for aaaages so I only read the headlines lol.

well basically everyone will vote the the old white man.

and that is all that mc cain offers

personally i barrack for Obama

I think the repubs are gonna go for McCain's war record as their selling point ~ strong arm etc ~ and sadly that's what many amercans seem to want. That pastor chap did no favour for Barrack either. But i'm glad clinton backed off (didn't like her approach to the campaign) so now barrack can concentrate on preparing for the big fight. I hope he wins!

only change for the democrats is Clinton as running mate for Barrack, and else we can follow shadow's advice.

quite frankly I despise all three candidates (tho I guess now there's only two) In RL I live in America and I still have no idea who I'm voting for. McCain is NOT an exact clone of Bush. And yes, Bush made pretty many mistakes, but the economy is crap because of what Clinton did during his 8 friggin years in the White House.
The military service issue is really only an issue because the President of the US is also the Commander In Chief of our entire military. I really don't see how someone can effectively serve in that role without having been in the military.
All that said, I will probably vote for McCain, at least if the governor of Alaska is put on as his running mate.

hmmm maybe Clinton did stuff it up a bit, but Bush is an idiot for the massive spending on "defence" and not paying attention to the home market. many of the problems could have been fixed through microeconomic reforms, especially the sub-prime mortgage crisis. of course i'm more anti republican than pro any of the candidates.

Also if the choices are that bad you don't have to vote?

Rina wrote:quite frankly I despise all three candidates (tho I guess now there's only two) In RL I live in America and I still have no idea who I'm voting for. McCain is NOT an exact clone of Bush. And yes, Bush made pretty many mistakes, but the economy is crap because of what Clinton did during his 8 friggin years in the White House.
The military service issue is really only an issue because the President of the US is also the Commander In Chief of our entire military. I really don't see how someone can effectively serve in that role without having been in the military.
All that said, I will probably vote for McCain, at least if the governor of Alaska is put on as his running mate.

pretty many mistakes?????????????????? the guys is worst fricking president in the history of humanity. He can stand in line along with Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, and Attilla the hun.


TV networks aren't allowed to broadcast any footage of dead soldiers, a president that favours the companies of his friends, a president that cheats with evidence in order to go to war, a president that allows suspects to leave the country a few hours after it's nation is under attack, that's what call a dictator. Have you ever read "il principe" (the prince) by Nicollo Machiavelli? He's 17th century author that describes how a dictatorship should be government. It's one of my favourite books. All the stuffs he sums up are often, sometimes almost literally, being used by the bush administration. I really advise everyone to read it. They should make it obligated lecture in schools.

And Clinton a bad president? I think he is, after Roseveld maybe, the best president you've ever had. Yes the economy didn't increased much, but you have to look it in it's time frame. The US economy isn't a island. In the 90'ties we a few crisis's, the US wasn't the only country that had those, it was a worldwide phenomenon. So I don't think you can blame Clinton for that. And have you seen the current economy under republican rule? Ppl are selling their houses for less then they bought it. We don't have that problem in europe so it's not a worldwide economic problem as the Clinton administration had, It's problem caused by the mismanagement of the republican administration.

As an American, you surely must have seen "sicko" by micheal more. I've visited the US a couple of times and I have relatives there. The Healthcare system you guys have is in one word monstrous. It's imo one of the worst crimes against humanity. I've seen the prices of medication there, and that is just not humane, not to mention the corrupt insurance companies. I've literally seen better social security systems in third world countries then the one you have in the US. for Christ sake, I've seen 60 year old ppl work in a Mc Donalds????? Can you imagine something like that in Europe? We'de have ppl protesting all over the continent.

Then the so called war on terror. The republicans dragged half the world into a fight over some with photoshop alternated pics. Bush constantly asks for more money and troops to sent to Iraq. He's constantly saying it's going better in Iraq. My dad has visited the country several times and each time he returns he says it's become even worse. It's turning into a second Vietnam. In stead of sending in more troops and pumping more money in planes and guns, why not pump the money in decent roads or electricity in stead? The war is over for 5 years now and still the electricity fall off daily in Baghdad. This despite the fact that Iraq has one of the largest energy resources in its soil in the entire world. How hard is it to build a power plant? I guess not that hard since there are military power plants have been build for ages. For the price of a few blackhawk choppers or 1 stealth, they could easily build one for the public as well.

What he should do is give the country into the hands of the UN. They have brought peace in kosovo and bosnia (where you also had 3 different ethnic groups, kinda like in Iraq), but including the UN in it would mean that he would lose his precious supplies of oil so he rather sees a few thousand American and foreign soldiers die, then to lose his oil.

As an American you might not have such a good view on it, but the whole worlds hates the US to the bone. How do you think that comes? Even here in Europe many ppl hate the US and rather see them get fail. 8 years ago the US stood for a very respectable nation, now you see ppl burning the American flag all over the world and many see the US as a corrupt state. 8 years ago many saw the stereotype American as a smart intelligent person living the American dream, now that has changed to the lunatic 150 kg weighing Mc Donald's eating gun freak that doesn't even know the the 2 border country's on his own country.

Same goes for climate change. The majority of the experts conclude that the climate is changing. The report by the UN states that it is already too late to undo the damage and that we must prepare for some large climatological changes. Yet Mc Kain doesn't mention much reducing the CO2 emission.


I'm telling you, If another republican wins the election, I predict serious climatological, military and social conflicts.

If obama doesnt win...
im going back to stereotyping 50%+ of americans (a nice round number...)...

Anyway, hit on a personal issue Shadow ? or just something your interested in (i dont blaem you for hating bush... if the guy was anywhere near my area i promise you, half a ton of teens would jump at him or pelt him down with bb guns)

Michael Moore's films are awesome. I've seen Sicko, and I was honestly disgusted by the American Government. I honestly had no idea how humanity can withstand sitting aside refusing to pay for people's healthcare, even when their life is at risk or they will certainly die without the treatment. I would certainly recommend that documentary to anyone.

NICCOLO', Shadow, his name's NICCOLO'

I totally agree with Shadow.
I've been travelling around USA a lot; I love that place, (south aboveall, rednek are lovely), but i must say most of people are really offish about anything happening outside their borders: most of them knew about Iraq war after 2 years it began, and the words you can mostly hear by them are "soldiers are made to do war, and anything that will provide to keep on our world privilege is allowed". Really sad.

Michael Moore's films are awesome

He does bring up some valid stuff but remember that he's hardly an unbiased point of view. He only shows one side of the story.

I read one of his books a while back and thought it was awesome and he must be right about everything he said. Then I read the appendix where he listed some ideas for solving problems world wide.
He wrote 3-4 pages on the Northern Ireland conflict and the entire thing was factually incorrect.

Seeing such crap written about something that i know a lot about made me doubt every thing he's ever done.

I'm on his side, he's probably right about most of it but I'd be very careful about taking anything Michael Moore says as Gospel truth.

Books are different to films I would say. In a film, you can actually see the truth. In books, you have to read it. I definatly think what he says is true, as I have relatives in USA and they tell me it's like that. I've also seen part of his documentary about something with guns in USA, and how a bank gave him a free gun just for opening an account with them. Terrible. Pathetic. Stupid.

Flamur wrote:Books are different to films I would say. In a film, you can actually see the truth. In books, you have to read it. I definatly think what he says is true, as I have relatives in USA and they tell me it's like that. I've also seen part of his documentary about something with guns in USA, and how a bank gave him a free gun just for opening an account with them. Terrible. Pathetic. Stupid.

yep, that's "bowling for columbine", proves the stereotype that many Americans are lunatic gun freaks.


I hope you do not feel offended by my wall of text Rina. It's just how I, and many ppl in europe (if not the large majority) feels about it.

the US is currently a huge mess, and only obama or Clinton are able to pull it out. Mc cain will make the mess even bigger. The US currently doesn't need a war hungry president, they've had one for 8 years and it brought the respect from the rest of the world to it's lowest point in the history of the USA

I definatly think what he says is true, as I have relatives in USA and they tell me it's like that.

I actually live in the US in RL so yes I'll agree that some of it is really messed up. Though to be honest you're safer in 90% of the US than you are walking down any street in the UK. It's the other 10% which you have to worry about.

The impression I get from the US each time I visit it, is that they aresuch a warm ppl. You can just start a conversations with a total stranger and there would be nothing weird about it, I also notice how gentle and proud the American public is. Something that is hard to find in europe these days.

And if it wheren't for their totally corrupt and old fashioned political system, I'd actually be one of the best places in the world to live in.

The problem with Mc cain winning is: the large majority of the world sees him as a second Bush. And whether he is one, or not, that doesn't matter. 4 years ago the Iraqi resistance where a few goat shepherds and a few radical National Guard members who had a few pistols and a few home made bombs. In fours years time, due to the policy of Bush, the Iraqi resistance has grown in size exponentially and is still growing. They have come to the lvl where they can match the worlds largest army in urban guerilla war fare. They have uniforms of US soldiers, the pistols have been changed for m-16's and armor piercing machine guns, the home made bombs have been changed for C4 and other high explosive material. By the looks of it, the US army is losing the war in Iraq.

If Mc Cain gets elected, more ppl will be frustrated about it, and more will join the resistance. And what will happen then do you think?

Those who have had the chance of reading Mao Zedong's book on guerilla warfare already know what's going to happen. The same as in Israel. It's only a 10 hour flight from Baghdad to New York, and a container with bombs can easily leave the port of Abadan and arrive in Baltimore a few days later. How long do you think before the Iraqi resistance will start realizing that if they are going to blow themselves up anyway, that they might as well do it on times square in stead of the goat market in Basra.

If people don't believe the US government, why do they believe in someone who is full of as much crap as Michel Moore? It's like they're exactly the same thing =). Just a thought.

the US is currently a huge mess, and only obama or Clinton are able to
pull it out. Mc cain will make the mess even bigger. The US currently
doesn't need a war hungry president, they've had one for 8 years and it
brought the respect from the rest of the world to it's lowest point in
the history of the USA

The problem with the Us government, is that no matter who is in charge, the scope for change is actually more limited than you'd think. All (well, most), politicians are in it for their own gain, and if they don't vote the way a certain party(Big business, lobby groups, etc) wants them too, they'll lose campaign money that'll get them re-elected, and so lose the power, and the position in the public eye.

The impression I get from the US each time I visit it, is that they aresuch a warm ppl

Depends where you go ={.

As for mcCain V Obama, both are pretty much the same, with regards to foreign policy iirc. And Obama hasn't really stated much of a policy in general, which is kinda odd. At least Clinton let people know what they'd be in for.



Personally, I think they should have Ron Paul in charge, simply because it'd be somewhat equivalent of us having Boris Johnson in charge. So it'd be hilarious to watch. They're both bat-shit insane, for starters =P.

Shadow you're being ever so slightly racist. No wonder you got voted out. This thread has turned from a genuine political discussion to racial attacks and stereotypes against the American people. Oh and for your lot's information I supported the Iraq and Afghanistan war and I still do. Oh and Shadow if you think the US (and the remaining UK soldiers) are losing in Iraq you are sorely ignorant. We are killing way more of them than they are of us. They don't have an unlimited supply of men.

widdows9000 wrote:Shadow you're being ever so slightly racist. No wonder you got voted out. This thread has turned from a genuine political discussion to racial attacks and stereotypes against the American people. Oh and for your lot's information I supported the Iraq and Afghanistan war and I still do. Oh and Shadow if you think the US (and the remaining UK soldiers) are losing in Iraq you are sorely ignorant. We are killing way more of them than they are of us. They don't have an unlimited supply of men.

although inevitably...
The US army (no personal offence to them) have quite a bit worse training and lower standards on the army (again no personal offence), And frankly... theres no end in visible site with that war, and if its going to go on too long its just going to become more infamous than it already is...

Oh and Shadow if you think the US (and the remaining UK soldiers) are
losing in Iraq you are sorely ignorant. We are killing way more of them
than they are of us.

Oh well in that case it makes the whole thing ok then. As long as more of them die, it's all good. The Field Marshal might be able to move his drinks cabinet 6 inches closer to Berlin [+5 cool points if you get the reference]. The Iraqi government is a mess, as is their law enforcement. We'll say nought of their infastructure. As the mission of the whole thing was to remove Saddam, and set up a new government, I'd say this is far from a success. Although it seems the anti-west sentiment from the whole thing is _slowly_ dying away, although it could just be becoming less vocal.

Fact of the matter is, there are no winners in Iraq, only losers. The US and Uk armies because this was never supposed to be a 5+ year long thing costing trillions, and more importantly, hundreds of men, and the Iraqis for obvious reasons.

widdows9000 wrote:Shadow you're being ever so slightly racist. No wonder you got voted out. This thread has turned from a genuine political discussion to racial attacks and stereotypes against the American people. Oh and for your lot's information I supported the Iraq and Afghanistan war and I still do. Oh and Shadow if you think the US (and the remaining UK soldiers) are losing in Iraq you are sorely ignorant. We are killing way more of them than they are of us. They don't have an unlimited supply of men.

Wtf?

Where the F*** did all that bullshit come from?

First of all, no one's being racist and I simply raised a political debate. There's no need whatsoever to start personal attacks.

Second of all, everyone stereotypes something whether they like it or not. We have a right to stereotype americans if we want from what their representative (Their president, which THEY voted for) has done.

Thirdly, you're too young to know if the army is winning in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's not as simple as manpower or killing.

Fourthly, that's the worst thing I've heard in such a long time. "We are killing way more of them than they are of us. They don't have an unlimited supply of men." Shows how much you fucking care about peoples lives.

Dam you Widdows, you put Flamur in a stress... He's going to be like that for the next few days.

mr. brodie wrote:Dam you Widdows, you put Flamur in a stress... He's going to be like that for the next few days.

In a stress? Over what? eRep? Lool, kk